THE FOLLOWING FILE WAS RELEASED WITH "ADEQUATE REDACTIONS AND EDITS."

04/14/2021 <Mr.C> I keep coming back to that Bronze Age collapse, I still desperately want to create some kind of game with it as the backdrop
04/29/2021 <Mr.L> @Mr.C there is a nonzero chance that ... will be a metaphysical mystery in which modus ponens is stolen from a philosophy department and nobody is able to reason P, P -> Q | Q for the entire game.
05/04/2021 <Mr.C> I think having a persona that is just pure expression might be fun in the context of phoebus and the cartel
05/11/2021 <Mr.C> alien blue. Also I really love the idea of a "Landscape of Thorns" game
05/11/2021 <Mr.B> Same. I was really inspired by that nuclear semiotics page. Phoebus could have landscape of thorns elements
05/11/2021 <Mr.L> Open to finishing Phoebus at same time if we can.
05/11/2021 <Mr.C> I think I could get real energy about Phoebus being about an attempt to communicate with the far future. a deep time story. the destruction and recreation machine would be part of the message
05/11/2021 <Mr.B> What if the message is warning you about a danger but that danger is alive and subtly interfering with your ability to decode that warning
05/11/2021 <Mr.C> now you're speakin my language (the language of experiential dread)
05/11/2021 <Mr.B> Yeeeeeeeeeaaaaaah. This might be tricky but you could set it up as a kind of mystery so there are a couple of different endings depending on whether you take the bait or get wise
05/11/2021 <Mr.C> Is there a ZZT file I should look at and get rolling on?
05/11/2021 <Mr.L> Yes.
05/11/2021 <Mr.C> phoe511a?
05/11/2021 <Mr.L> yep that's the one. the main things to keep on each board are the objects on the "notes" page. there's some general objects there too but for the engine piece those are most important. if you have questions hmu i'm pretty available tonight
05/11/2021 <Mr.L> @Mr.B idk if this made it out of a @Mr.L-@Mr.C dm but i think one notion was to submit phoebus from a VPN spoofing poland
05/11/2021 <Mr.C> "Trying to come up with adjacent messages not already part of the WIPP or similar projects but possessed of the same aura.
""Disturbing this place incurs a debt you will not be able to repay.""
""The nature of this debt will not be obvious to you.""
""This place was chosen to protect others.""
""This place was chosen to be far away from people."""
05/11/2021 <Mr.C> Seek a place of safety now
05/11/2021 <Mr.B> Oh yes! I was thinking of Voltron: Legendary Defender
05/11/2021 <Mr.B> They discover "quintessence"
05/11/2021 <Mr.B> but it like... is real bad for the universe when they start extracting it in mass
05/11/2021 <Mr.L> o man
05/11/2021 <Mr.L> this may dovetail nicely with the idea i had about death/rebirth
05/11/2021 <Mr.B> quintessence also affects people's minds
05/11/2021 <Mr.L> the only way to dodge the consequence is to not be there when it happens. that is, temporarily leave the plane such that you DNE for a few seconds
05/11/2021 <Mr.L> (or a few years)
05/11/2021 <Mr.B> oh like warped perception of reality?
05/11/2021 <Mr.L> not necessarily a foregone conclusion but could be a good excuse to use that bit and tie into a 'good ending'
05/12/2021 <Mr.B> Kind of. More like... consumed by a lust for power that replaces all of your better angels
05/12/2021 <Mr.L> ah. gross.
05/12/2021 <Mr.C> So this would be similar, but instead of an all-consuming greed, this would be a cascading effect from a relatively small act of greed. Perhaps even greed justified to oneself as need
05/12/2021 <Mr.B> There is a character in voltron who has certain magical abilities that allow her to basically have a dark creature live inside her and give her powers. So she kind of controls it
05/12/2021 <Mr.C> reminds of His Dark Materials
05/12/2021 <Mr.L> like breaking bad guy's conscience but as a cosmic force?
05/12/2021 <Mr.B> Lol like classic evil spirit possession
05/12/2021 <Mr.L> oh sorry i was responding to Mr. C's thing...that other one is interesting
05/12/2021 <Mr.B> Or like whisperings of the devil
05/12/2021 <Mr.B> Oh I know. I'm saying his thing is like that Conscience as cosmic force
05/12/2021 <Mr.B> Reminded me of the idea of the devil tempting you to do bad things
05/12/2021 <Mr.C> The circumstances and emotions triggering the effect would be long vanished along with the benefit. But the consequences would only grow. Confusion and despair and dread
05/12/2021 <Mr.B> Reminds me a bit of the dig
05/12/2021 <Mr.C> Small benefit, exponential consequence
05/12/2021 <Mr.B> Did either of you play that?
05/12/2021 <Mr.C> I didn’t
05/12/2021 <Mr.C> I don’t know why we avoided the lucasarts games
05/12/2021 <Mr.C> We were a sierra family
05/12/2021 <Mr.B> https://thedig.fandom.com/wiki/Life_crystals#:~:text=The%20life%20crystals%20were%20created,only%20slaves%20to%20the%20crystals.
05/12/2021 <Mr.B> Humans and Cocytans brought back to life using the crystals at first feel revitalized and healthier than ever before. Unfortunately, the resurrected person will quickly become addicted to the pleasant effects of the crystals, and will stop at nothing to get them.
05/12/2021 <Mr.B> You resurrect one of your crew mates with a life crystal, but he becomes so obsessed with them he gets his arm stuck in a crevice where he dropped one and you have to saw his arm off with a jaw bone to get him out
05/12/2021 <Mr.B> if you're in the mood for some old lucasarts gore: https://youtu.be/kTs2GIZVGoI?t=6367
05/12/2021 <Mr.B> apparently this was spielberg's idea
05/12/2021 <Mr.B> I don't remember how old I was when I played this game, but the sound of the sawing and the screaming was burned in my mind forever. this dialogue rules
05/12/2021 <Mr.L> was it voice acted
05/12/2021 <Mr.B> yes! "why was your tomb so carefully hidden?"
05/12/2021 <Mr.B> just pasting for the ideas. I forgot this but you are on this planet bc you were following a probe.
05/12/2021 <Mr.B> lol this was more apropos to our conversation than I realized.
05/12/2021 <Mr.L> indeed
05/12/2021 <Mr.B> practical guy from earth
05/12/2021 <Mr.L> practical guys from earth 2021
05/12/2021 <Mr.B> The "temptation" described there was going into "spacetime six" and losing touch of reality, such that you can never come back to your body and you're stuck in spacetime six forever
05/12/2021 <Mr.L> dang
05/12/2021 <Mr.B> so all the creatures of the planet went in there and got lost forever, until a practical guy from earth that just wants to get home finds them and shows the way home. it's a little rushed and hokey at the end, but there are some good ideas to work with there... now time to sleep and dream about creepy dead planets with terrible secrets
05/21/2021 <Mr.C> I'm making some more phoebus project
05/21/2021 <Mr.C> I messed with some things. I hope it's ok
05/21/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown PHOE511w.zzt 63.03 KB
05/21/2021 <Mr.C> I also updated the gdrive. its also saved on the wrong board but you get the idea
05/21/2021 <Mr.C>

05/21/2021 <Mr.C> hostile architecture
05/21/2021 <Mr.C>

05/21/2021 <Mr.L> yes. yes it is
05/21/2021 <Mr.C> there saved to the right board
05/21/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown PHOE511w.zzt 62.88 KB
05/21/2021 <Mr.L> oh excellent
05/21/2021 <Mr.C> I'm using zedit2 in an effort to mask style somewhat I messed with some boards I don't have checked out

05/21/2021 <Mr.L> that's aight. i think this is acceptable messing. i'm going to give this a try tomorrow morning unless i am out cold (pfizer shot 2 this morning) and later that day if i am out cold
05/21/2021 <Mr.C> k. I havent set it up where you can only read the thing when you have torch on. that's like #if st2?
05/21/2021 <Mr.L> let me check
05/21/2021 <Mr.L> st3 is lit torch
05/21/2021 <Mr.C> ah ok
05/21/2021 <Mr.L> notes field should have that info, feel free to add it if you add a flag
05/21/2021 <Mr.C> so ill tie the reading of the layered messages to st3
05/22/2021 <Mr.L> also i BELIEVE i'm only using about 3 flags atm. i should probably add the other 2 to the notes thing (i believe the stN flags should only use 1 flag at a time). you're amazing
05/22/2021 <Mr.C> which bit is the good bit I'll do more of that
05/22/2021 <Mr.L> i mean i think it's all good. if you don't mind i may go through and touch up the white/pruple rock to give it a 'cliffside' like the red has later, but it looks great
05/22/2021 <Mr.C> i was wondering whether to do that
05/22/2021 <Mr.L> definitely, and please feel free to take first crack (even change the color up a bit if you find better). i'm thinking i will probably go through later like a madman and try to edit code so labels and stuff looks a bit more uniform with previous (to avoid giving away the fact that there's 3 of us), but that can wait for now
05/22/2021 <Mr.C> added
05/22/2021 <Mr.L> excellent. also i 'claimed' 3,6 4.,6 for you
05/22/2021 <Mr.C> I'm going to switch up the flags being used to keep track of how many layers of message you are on my dude, so it's kr1 kr2 kr3 kr4 instead of kra krb krc krd
05/22/2021 <Mr.L> aight. originally i was going to say what about kr0 but i'd say keep it kr1. if they're all anally similar that might point too much to me :p
05/22/2021 <Mr.C> I mean the forensics of it pointing to multiple authors might be ok as long as none of the authors it points to are us
05/22/2021 <Mr.L> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaah right
05/22/2021 <Mr.C> there is for sure a part of me that's like: put it in a hex editor, replace all instances of touch with TOUCH and so forth
05/22/2021 <Mr.L> well i may have already failed on that score, these terrains look like our stuff on some level at least (the red blend)
05/22/2021 <Mr.C> I only know the connection because I saw about two orders of magnitude more than you shared publicly
05/22/2021 <Mr.L> also the fact is that the eldritch parts look a lot more 'Mr.C' ...idk, thinking out loud, but maybe if it points to being all three of us (however incidentally) that's still kinda 'safe'. I can't say for sure if the new part looks like 'Mr.C' but it definitely DOESN'T look like Mr.L so there is that
05/22/2021 <Mr.C> I think it being an engine game anyway might mean it won't matter it'll point to us regardless. the exact nature of the engine is .... very us
05/22/2021 <Mr.L> YES yes. yeah...the engine will point to us if nothing else does
05/22/2021 <Mr.L> curve'?
05/22/2021 <Mr.C>

05/22/2021 <Mr.C> but maybe leaning away from our respective styles isn't the answer, instead leaning toward an imitable style from somewhere else in the community
05/22/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown PHOE511w.zzt 74.06 KB
05/22/2021 <Mr.C> updated non-potion notions too. The debt manifests itself as missing words
05/22/2021 <Mr.L> YES. getting jumped back to the CONFIRM YOUR READINESS FOR DUTY is about as jarring as i could hope for. this game's whole vibe might get a couple jumpstarts out of people (always a noble goal IMO)
05/22/2021 <Mr.B> Can't wait to try this at some point today. Maybe I'll get a bit of zzting in this evening
05/22/2021 <Mr.L> hey Mr.C is LBC on twitter actually you
05/22/2021 <Mr.C> ... who’s asking
05/22/2021 <Mr.L> oh lol just me
05/22/2021 <Mr.C> Shhh
05/22/2021 <Mr.L> ok i see what you're doing. i will hold off following its twitter acct right now so as not to arouse further suspicions when the game is released
05/22/2021 <Mr.C> Yeah now comes the bit where the among us training comes into play
05/22/2021 <Mr.B> Hehe
05/22/2021 <Mr.C> The impostor always gets real quiet. Tries to slip a few killuns under the radar
05/23/2021 <Mr.C> so lessee: Here's what my brain tells me is possible
05/23/2021 <Mr.B> In Phoebus?
05/23/2021 <Mr.C> They aren't particularly new or complicated ideas in the genre but they are not often seen in ZZT. The introduction of mechanics can be seen in relation to distance from the origin, which in phoebus is an even more critical centering point
05/23/2021 <Mr.C> one of the things he did that I really liked was in how he introduced the mechanics in his mechanics-based puzzling: introduce each mechanic in a very simple and clear puzzle that uses only that mechanic and has a small reward. this happens medium-near to the origin
05/23/2021 <Mr.L> yes
05/23/2021 <Mr.C> have a complex puzzle that uses the same isolated mechanic but requires you to learn some emergent behavior of the mechanic. this is about the same distance from the origin as the teaching puzzle, maybe a little closer, but it needs to be clear that this puzzle can be returned to later. The desire to hit ones head against a wall can be strong
05/23/2021 <Mr.L> yes
05/23/2021 <Mr.C> lastly, at the far reaches of the map are synthetic puzzles where the mechanics interact. thesis-analysis-synthesis model
05/23/2021 <Mr.L> yes. the witness did some of that too right? how to introduce mechanics in the most "covert tutorial" way possible is a SUPER important discussion
05/23/2021 <Mr.C> Advanced psychology
05/23/2021 <Mr.L> so discussing that but for puzzles and systems generally? excellent stuff
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> lights on, no one home. trying for a subtle trypophobia there with the wall warning:
05/24/2021 <Mr.C>

05/24/2021 <Mr.L> Trypophobia?
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> the thing where people get real uncomfortable around a lot of regularly spaced holes
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> Oh yeah that is spooky
05/24/2021 <Mr.L> Excellent
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> So I made a thing
05/24/2021 <Mr.L> Oh?
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> a Chemometer (ch0) that can take readings from various research stations around the rim of the game
05/24/2021 <Mr.L> Oooo
05/24/2021 <Mr.C>

05/24/2021 <Mr.C> it has enough juice to take 3 readings. each reading you take gives you a bit of score (30 points) I'm thinking once you take three readings something should happen. Also I don't know if you looked at the updates to the design doc but I have an idea for an ending
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> So the more you explore, the more debt you incur, and the debt is manifest by a loss of words/comprehension, until there is nothing left?
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> yes. and someone rescues you, but you have no idea what is being said
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> it's like a gritty horror ella minnow pea. did you ever read that?
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> nah
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> it's a kid's book
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> oh awesome! sucessive lipograms that's my jam
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> letters gradually fall off of this pangram statue in town and when one falls off, they decide it was the will of the gods that that letter is not to be used anymore. the book is epistolary and the letters have fewer unique letters as it goes on
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> amazing. I wrote a pretty long successive lipogram that I got five chapters into removing 5 letters and then was like "welp this stopped being fun"
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> hahaha yeah it seems like a tortuous process
05/24/2021 <Mr.L> I like the idea for the ending
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> but in the phoebus case, are you thinking more random?
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> yeah, just more and more gaps
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> are you thinking this is representative of cognitive decline, or something weirder. or ambiguous such that it could be both
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> I want to try and evoke broca's aphasia. I'm thinking that whatever's happening starts in the broca area
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> what if we also muted some colors as time went on? the shades of grey effect, except you see it happening
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> an interesting idea, how would we manage it tho? #change red normal red normal? #change red breakable red breakable ?
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> what would that do? I wonder if we could hide some walls; well that might require some font shenanigans
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> it would remove the backgrounds from the tiles, washing out the colors
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> oh! I see
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> Actually that might be a pretty rad way to set up the final act
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> I was trying to think if there was a way to hide the bg color of solid items that look like solids and then change it to something that reveals the bg color
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> I'm thinking once you've taken the three readings and ch3 is set, gems are automatically drained so you have exactly 1 torch of distance you can go from origin
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> Well you can get a lot of grey by just changing to sharks, and then change shark whatever tile. but maybe just draining the bg color like you said might be more effective, more subtle
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> we might be able to drain color like that at ch2 and then sharkify at ch3. we would have to be careful because sharks are statful
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> Oh right, you can only do a bit at a time
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> But I'm thinking like this:
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> phase 1 #change red breakable red breakable
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> phase 2 #change breakable red breakable
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> phase 3 :z #change red breakable shark #change shark breakable #if any red breakable z
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> same for normals and solids
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> oh duh that loop is a nice solution that I didn't consider. can we add weird hallucinations too? somehow
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> yes we can. the cadence of the game is dictated by the readings
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> re: release what if we just quietly uploaded it to itch with the #zzt tags. I wonder how long it would take to find
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> That's a possibility
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> we'd have to create a new account
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> I've been gently assembling a twitter and itch presence already. https://ell-bc.itch.io I will add login creds to all extant social media to the drive
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> lol the git bat. I love how far you've gone with this
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> It's designed not to hold up under scrutiny. We want people to know there's a guessing game to be had (I think?)
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> Is the plan to create an 8x10 map grid? or is that just for convenience?
05/24/2021 <Mr.L> Certainly can be smaller
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> I don't think we will make it all the way to 8x10 and still have a managable file size, but we will see
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> yeah good point
05/24/2021 <Mr.L> I was feeling very subnautica inspired when I started that map, But I'm aok with downsizing
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> We'll just have to see what we can make happen. I've been really wasteful with my bytes 140+ stats on the hostile architecture board and so forth, but we can expect many of the boards to be between 4k and 6k
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> okay
05/24/2021 <Mr.L> yeah. i wish i knew of a stat we could put that would do the kangaroo effect thing and be dark
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> I haven't pre-bound anything for example, I do't trust myself not to eff up the stat order
05/24/2021 <Mr.L> probably a good move and we can always tackle that later on if we want
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> yeah I also work that way
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> i'd be tempted to KE-ify the dark boards if i thought it could be kept looking consistent. Has there been discussion of what the gameplay is like? iirc no bullets, are there to be puzzles?
05/24/2021 <Mr.L> yeah no bullets. but i really want a Mr.B zappy ruins board
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> oh like that star experiment board I was working on?
05/24/2021 <Mr.L> yes
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> The theme lends itself to a lot of different fun directions. this is a civilization trying to impress you with its technical potency
05/24/2021 <Mr.L> the only other puzzle i really want to do is the destroy the player one, and i'm certain some cryptic and ridiculous text can be written to clue the player in that it's on purpose
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> It wants you to know that it is really powerful, and it was destroyed by this place, and if you are impressed by what its doing you should heed its warning. Yes, the destroy the player device would be something like "We have control over time and matter and space and death. We consider this a mighty power."
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> k what about rewards for completing puzzles/accessing difficult areas, etc. tbd?
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> Two rewards: Reward with points which give you more wiggle room when navigating around
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> points allows further exploration? ok
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> other possibility is find a research station, which progresses the game state
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> have any research stations been made yet?
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> Yes. I have one that's set up next to a crashed satellite
05/24/2021 <Mr.C>

05/24/2021 <Mr.B> do you go inside it?
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> yes if you can figure out the door
05/24/2021 <Mr.C>

05/24/2021 <Mr.B> were the research stations set up by later unlucky visitors? it seems like a true research station. very small
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> They were set up by the same civilization that discovered they could use a chemometer to measure the effect of the debt. the satellite was a probe sent by a much much earlier civ. but I'm thinking the research stations are all set up next to unusual formations or objects
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> K I'll start working on a perilous zappy industrial type place
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> There are two key items: redkc, a red keycard - that's the red square in that research station there, and 'bomb', which is an infinite supply of explosives. Widen gaps, blow open doors, things like that. using 'bomb' places a bomb, but in a place where it can't be pushed anywhere.
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> oh that's important
05/24/2021 <Mr.C>

05/24/2021 <Mr.C>

05/24/2021 <Mr.B> has the bomb location already been determined?
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> bomb is never cleared. You have a whole backpack full of explosives you can use. I have three locations so far
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> Oh I figured it was something you'd have to acquire
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> Oh!
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> metroidvania style
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> yes the backpack is not placed. I have three locations to use them but not attain them
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown PHOE511w.zzt 91.56 KB
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> My thought is once you have hit ch3 and everything has gone grey and you can no longer acquire gems, a bunch of things appear near the origin that weren't there before
05/24/2021 <Mr.L> Mr.C can u do me a favor and start renaming these with a date-letter version
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> hallucinations and such
05/24/2021 <Mr.L> or at least updating by date
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> yes
05/24/2021 <Mr.L> thank you so much
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> k gotta get to work. thanks for catching me up
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> Like this?
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown PHOE524a.zzt 91.56 KB
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> I wasn't sure what the convention was but I can date and letter 'em sure
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> phoe5 pho phum
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> mmm pho
05/24/2021 <Mr.L> yeah. sorry i should have explained that i was using the convention of date and then letters to differentiate multiple versions on a date. of course people will frequently discover issues that need fixing right after a release, so like june 6 version abcdef and g
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> I use that convention too. this is gonna get messy if/when multiples of us are making edits at the same time. we need a live collaborative editor
05/24/2021 <Mr.L> i was thinking i might transition at some point into mainly being a 'patcher'and/or maybe revisiting some boards to fake a look of rabbitboots oslt :p
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> When we upload a new file we can type out the name of the file we're forking from on the title screen
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> updating the sheet. I'm starting to develop boundaries around the area I've been working on
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> https://twitter.com/valeriehalla/status/1396908454602706946 the real venus is spooky
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown PHOE524c.zzt 90.06 KB
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> I chopped some KB out by using bind more aggressively. not prebind just bind
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> we're not using passages, are we? As in, a room within a room, going inside buildings
05/24/2021 <Mr.L> It wasn't in my original concept but it should be ok as long as it isn't expected to throw off the lighting timer more than a cycle or two
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> I don't need it, I was just checking. can zedit be fullscreen?
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> not really. also cant zoom in too far or it et real super slow, at least on this machine
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> weird
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> atlas mode incredibly slow. As long as you don't use the same color of passages as are being used the home warp you fine. if TCtr is on both boards a passage doesn't interfere
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> were you thinking the spike garden would be restricted to the bottom corner you're working on?
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> yes. have a look at the spreadsheet; everything there is blocked off so we don't have to extend the spike garden
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> That should save some bytes!
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> yes indeed. Two boards of it is enough to have an impact. I'm starting 24d forked from 24c
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> hahaha fuuuck
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> oh no
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> flood fill in atlas mode spills onto multiple pages
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> lol
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> so if you flood fill the thing it will BOOSH fill the entire thing. no problem right? there's an undo
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> I can't even get flood fill to work. uh oh
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> undo only fixes the board you're on
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> Nooooooooooooooooooo
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> anyway I lost approximately 6 and a half minutes of my life. :smile: so flood fill the quickest way, use the mouse to plot one block in the middle of where you want to flood fill, then press a direction key to move the non-mouse cursor onto the area you want to fill, then press F.
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> ty. oh but I guess it does have the standard direction key + tab function. for some reason the combination of mouse and keyboard functionality really threw me off at first bc it doubles the amount of stuff you need to know: right click, left click, enter, space. I still need to figure out how to get the buffer working. I'm so used to the automatically filling buffer in ke
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> I haven't bothered with buffer yet. if I need to do random fills and I need to have control over tile frequency I'm just using kevedit
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> Will re-enter when zapped mess up the engine?
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> I don't think so
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> here's an idea: for this board, how about one or two beasts that walk around and hunt the player?
05/24/2021 <Mr.B>

05/24/2021 <Mr.B> Trying to think of a way to make it kind of exciting to walk through it multiple times without it getting boring
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> at any rate I kind of like the idea of a game where in certain places there are things trying to kill you but you have no weapon. Anything else visible in the dark that can be #put besides torches and players?
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> passages. So, an idea of a kind of attack that would be possible in the game and I'm not sure how best to accomplish. a sort of #change empty empty, #change empty , :z /i#take ammo 198 z, #give ammo 198, #take gems 4 2 1, #change empty
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> that would take away all your light power?
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> it would hold you in place until your torch went out yes. the would be 'solid' in an ideal world. it would release you immediately before you got warped away so when you re-entered the board you wouldn't be blocked off, so on boards with this monster you would need to make sure you used no solids
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> There could be another object(s) on the board that create clones so that the torch drain is quicker if you didn't want to risk a long slow burn
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> good idea
05/24/2021 <Mr.L> It could also make for nice fd up visuals
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> you'd need to be very careful in your calculation to make sure you are adding 1 extra ammo per clone (is that the right math?)
05/24/2021 <Mr.L> Maybe
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> my other thought was the thing doesn't attack unless ammo > 150 or something, then you can be protected by making sure your torch is plenty bright when going through the hazard. leave a hint like "light must be strong, if your light is weak they will come"
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> Or could be the reverse, like the nightplanet creatures
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> oh yes, extra bright torch could also draw enemies
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> both options would be good in different places
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> second option would be good for act 3 when you don't have any gems: "you can get through this gate but only if your torch is about to go out" giving you very limted time beyond the gate
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> if we move in this direction of needing to monitor ammo counter, it may be helpful to add some sound cues or something to denote level so the player doesn't have to constantly look back at the counter. something simple like 1 beep is 75% 2 is 50%, 3 is 25%; now I'm imagining a scene where you make it in okay with high power, and then they all chase you once you're inside and your power is low
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> yes. And we can restrict that mechanic to act 3 so the beeps are experienced for only a portion of the game, or at least restrict it to a later act, 2 or 3
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> lol lbc joined discord eh, now I'm imagining what if most of the recent users to join are actually just alter egos, specifically Mr.C's
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> I don't want to give the game away, but I'm thinking something to the tune of, LBC pipes up in discord about "Is there an instruction on how to make a ZZT world?" probably in the make a neat thing jam and wait for people to vomit out links to zedit and such and then say something about how zima doesnt seem to work, it opens up a command window and then closes. a second volley, links to openjdk
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> lol the standard questions
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> yes exactly. follow that up with how ZZT was one of the first games LBC played as a kid
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> maybe some question about an opaque-yet-important feature of zzt-oop, like stat order
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> gotta build up to it, but yes the idea is to build in layers. We're not just creating a world, we are creating a creator of a world
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> is that avatar from that game you were working on?
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> nah, that's from the OUYA's smash hit, Duck Game. ducks on the "senpai' team have that face. duck game is notable because the B button on the controller is permanently mapped to quack. also because it's the best game
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> ha!
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> it's not uncommon even after dozens of hours of play to panic and accidentally throw your gun at an opponent's head rather than shoot
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> quack = throw gun?
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> quack always just quacks, regardless of situation
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> that's great - no purpose? just quack?
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> none at all
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> i love it. I'm looking at gameplay and wow those ducks move quick
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> yeah the pacing is super fast, which is why its easy to press the wrong button in a crisis
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> Mr.B you forking e from c?
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> Yeah. I called it pho25dz, but maybe just calling it e would be better - Lol my browser is unresponsive but still playing music and I can't stop it. And the task manager froze
05/24/2021 <Mr.L> hehe
05/24/2021 <Mr.C>

05/24/2021 <Mr.C> Going places
05/24/2021 <Mr.L> oooooooooooo
05/24/2021 <Mr.B> started working on this area. I'm a big fan of spaces that allow you to peek at places before you get there. plus they can be nice places to stash powerups
05/24/2021 <Mr.B>

05/24/2021 <Mr.C> I agree - the abbreviated view of the torchlight means that reveal has to be a bit tighter, but overall that's not a bad thing just an adjustment. big putty blocky
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown PHOE524d.zzt 109.73 KB
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> added a minefield

05/24/2021 <Mr.C> I havent dug into why TCtr takes health, but I'm assuming that if your health drops below 11 the game also rescues you back to the ship? I've set things up so that you can't hurt yourself more than once per step
05/24/2021 <Mr.L> yes
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> with the assumption that this will prevent the player from getting #endgame
05/24/2021 <Mr.L> that should be the correct assumption
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> ok. re-enter when zapped will do the same
05/24/2021 <Mr.L> yeah. had to double check for a moment and make sure exactly 11 health wouldn't cause a problem
05/24/2021 <Mr.L> ok this week assuming i have energy i need to play through some of the excellence you all are doing on phoebus
05/24/2021 <Mr.L> i opened up the spreadsheet and MR. C. SPLOSION. i am laughter
05/24/2021 <Mr.L>

05/24/2021 <Mr.C> Okay, I'm forking f from d
05/24/2021 <Mr.C> Some chemometery readings
05/24/2021 <Mr.C>

05/25/2021 <Mr.C> Okay, social media credentials are going into the design doc
05/25/2021 <Mr.L> sweet
05/25/2021 <Mr.B> Lol at "you all", Though I'll take credit for my contribution to the conversation at least
05/25/2021 <Mr.C> We have one week until Zinfandel's jam starts. Might be fun to have LBC release something for it. Maybe something to throw folks off the scent
05/25/2021 <Mr.B> LCB best new ZZTer of 2021
05/25/2021 <Mr.B> Lightculb bartel
05/25/2021 <Mr.C> light culb bartel
05/25/2021 <Mr.C> ^5
05/25/2021 <Mr.B> Lol
05/25/2021 <Mr.B> ^5
05/25/2021 <Mr.L> lolololol
05/25/2021 <Mr.C> We can use the jam to establish elements of personal style we're unlikely to be able to extricate from the final game
05/25/2021 <Mr.B> Like what do you think? I wonder how many people will join the jam. The instructions are to make a "collect the people keys" game?
05/25/2021 <Mr.C> one board of one, with a purple key in it
05/25/2021 <Mr.B> Well it could be dark
05/25/2021 <Mr.C> nice
05/25/2021 <Mr.L> lol
05/25/2021 <Mr.B> Lightbulb cartel makes only dark games. I was thinking it could be like a spiritual predecessor to Phoebus
05/25/2021 <Mr.L> :smile:
05/25/2021 <Mr.C> It is very right
05/25/2021 <Mr.B> So wander around through a labyrinthian space in the dark, have a little monster(s) that re-enter when zapped you
05/25/2021 <Mr.C> ya
05/25/2021 <Mr.L> they do have to organically hurt you tho, like shoot you
05/25/2021 <Mr.C> Sure. But it's all on one board. we are essentuially doing a 1-board demake of a game that hasn't been released yet. that no one knows is a demake.
05/25/2021 <Mr.B> Lol. I love it. Needs a title
05/25/2021 <Mr.L> deimos?
05/25/2021 <Mr.B> Feebas
05/25/2021 <Mr.C> Apollo Station
05/25/2021 <Mr.B> I was thinking Apollo too
05/25/2021 <Mr.C> I'm thinking Testa-esque, clean white interior with sci-fi styling
05/25/2021 <Mr.B> Like escape from some science experiment gone wrong kind of thing?
05/25/2021 <Mr.C> Yes. But like, aliens burst out from the walls and it's just prefabs
05/25/2021 <Mr.B> The fun thing about this is that in addition to fun of the long con, the games will be good
05/25/2021 <Mr.C> Aliens burst out from the wall! #put s lion #put s lion
05/25/2021 <Mr.L> lol. just fyi i may have to "forget" this one to maintain the illusion
05/25/2021 <Mr.B> #put s Boulder #put s Boulder #change Boulder lion for extra burstiness
05/25/2021 <Mr.C> This was incredible for a first effort. I can't wait to see what you'll do next
05/25/2021 <Mr.L> hehehehehe
05/25/2021 <Mr.C> does putting lions not push other lions?
05/25/2021 <Mr.C> it does! no need for boulders, just slam down them lions
05/25/2021 <Mr.B> Will they push the player like boulders? That's a great effect
05/25/2021 <Mr.C> yes they push the player. check ELEMENTS.PAS for all the builtins that push the player, heads and tigers I think do, ruffians I think do
05/25/2021 <Mr.B> Interesting. My favorite boss attack is to put a colored boulder and a bunch of others to push the player way back and then change the colored boulder to a star. It's a very satisfying power move
05/25/2021 <Mr.L> lolol
05/25/2021 <Mr.C> Greened out a bunch of boards, added several deaths
05/25/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown PHOE524f.zzt 127.72 KB
05/25/2021 <Mr.L> Oooooooo
05/25/2021 <Mr.C> The ghost drowning death still needs some finesse. TCtr needs to #change bullet empty after the health is <11
05/25/2021 <Mr.L> just on that board?
05/25/2021 <Mr.C> Yes
05/25/2021 <Mr.L> excellent. i am shame that i had to go verify what tctr was to make sure it was my engine
05/25/2021 <Mr.B> torch counter?
05/25/2021 <Mr.L> yeah
05/25/2021 <Mr.C> It does more than count torches these days tho. There, with the fix to the drowning death:
05/25/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown PHOE524f.zzt 127.79 KB
05/25/2021 <Mr.C>

05/25/2021 <Mr.L> words cannot express my love for that giant gemplant
05/25/2021 <Mr.C> Okay we'll get there. DROWNING DEATHS AMIRITE
05/25/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown PHOE524f.zzt 127.86 KB
05/25/2021 <Mr.C> there, that's decent
05/25/2021 <Mr.B> my eternity was sealed
05/25/2021 <Mr.C> Indeed. if you ?+ch2 you can see some of the hallucinations too. forking 25a from 24f
05/25/2021 <Mr.B> how do I set the bomb? what's the flag I mean
05/25/2021 <Mr.B> bomb. go figure
05/25/2021 <Mr.B> oh no I made a zappy puzzle but it's too hard
05/25/2021 <Mr.B> fixed it. not quite done but this is some kind of industrial building with sparky machines and a big landslide
05/25/2021 <Mr.B>

05/25/2021 <Mr.C> ahh fabulous. 219/220/221/222/223/254 is such a great asthetic
05/25/2021 <Mr.B> ty. It's pretty random now; may try to clean that up a bit later. was focusing on the "platforming" part. I love these star walls. I like pushing the player around
05/25/2021 <Mr.L> not that i'm one to talk but: "Mr.B: I like pushing the player around"
05/25/2021 <Mr.B> heart of troll
05/25/2021 <Mr.C> Do doo, do doo doo heart of troll do doo doo
05/25/2021 <Mr.B> still need to do a bit of clean-up and fix the awful sound, but the board is playable and beatable now
05/25/2021 <Mr.B> Attachment file type: unknown PHO524dz.zzt 96.53 KB
05/25/2021 <Mr.C> Solar array for ya nerves
05/25/2021 <Mr.C>

05/25/2021 <Mr.C> Given this place clearly no longer orbits a star, kinda useless now
05/26/2021 <Mr.B> Ooo good idea
05/26/2021 <Mr.C> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_planet
05/26/2021 <Mr.B> Spooky
05/26/2021 <Mr.C> I've greened out everything I had open, I've executed on all the ideas I had for now
05/26/2021 <Mr.B> Attachment file type: unknown PHOE525a.zzt 151.50 KB
05/26/2021 <Mr.L> cool, that's amazing
05/26/2021 <Mr.C> Let me know when you get a chance to experience the pipe of souls.
05/26/2021 <Mr.L> i will. i think that will be TOMORROW. i am SETTING AN ACTUAL TIME, SEVEN PEE EM
05/26/2021 <Mr.C> So I took my tower and put it in the other room, and took the media machine and moved it into the studio. this was the surest way

05/26/2021 <Mr.C> missed a couple TCtrs
05/26/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown PHOE525a.zzt 152.83 KB
05/26/2021 <Mr.L> lol someone shares my struggle. granted it's mainly my struggle when i would replace them
05/26/2021 <Mr.C> next struggle, we'll have to decide when it's appropriate to switch everyone out for TCtr2, when or if
05/26/2021 <Mr.L> lol well, it might just be able to be a board by board basis. if only some boards need the extra bullet deletion for example
05/26/2021 <Mr.C> there's also the chapter based color changes. we'll have to do a couple test boards to see if it is noticeable / is a good look
05/26/2021 <Mr.L> yeah
05/26/2021 <Mr.C> Okay last one for realsies.
05/26/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown PHOE525a.zzt 153.05 KB
05/26/2021 <Mr.C> Ahahahahahaha ahahahhahhahhhhhhhh https://twitter.com/theshedm/status/1397246173187125248
05/26/2021 <Mr.C> I’m reading Stephen King’s Danse Macabre rn, his dissertation on horror in all media from 1950-1980
05/26/2021 <Mr.B> good title
05/26/2021 <Mr.C> It outlines all the vehicles by which horror fiction’s main premise “figure out what scares you and write about it” can be conveyed, And how the symbols of popular horror in each decade reinforce the fears their audience already had
05/26/2021 <Mr.L> almost done with The Nine Tailors. stay tuned for my incidentally timed zzt murder mystery with light Anglican bellringing themes (not really, but if someone could write zzt dialog the way sayers writes novel dialog that person might legitimately make money on zzt games)
05/26/2021 <Mr.C> Well who knows maybe mister LBC is amazing and will epitomize the medium
05/26/2021 <Mr.L> lololol
05/26/2021 <Mr.L> oh no
05/26/2021 <Mr.L>

05/26/2021 <Mr.L> it did not occur to me that moving left would mess up the same-screen respawn...eek
05/26/2021 <Mr.L> working on a fix, sorry gents
05/26/2021 <Mr.B> Those players gettin'cozy in the back room I see
05/26/2021 <Mr.L> aye
05/26/2021 <Mr.L> FIXED BOOM
05/26/2021 <Mr.L> ok so the hotfix on the ship is: move the door object set 1 to the right and change the dark grey on grey step values to -2, -1. same basic effect except now you can't softlock. i left a board in the drive but the next time we get a merged version i can just fix it there too (i said, as if we'd ever had one before)
05/26/2021 <Mr.L> honestly i think upgrades should all go towards torch time unless one of you has a seriously mean course planned re health
05/26/2021 <Mr.B> I agree. Just recharge health to 100 with the reset. Or not. But I'm not planning on making health a hard thing
05/26/2021 <Mr.L> hey Mr.C, at what point is a bomb supposed to be gotten? i gather it's supposed to be gathered from somewhere but i am missing something
05/26/2021 <Mr.B> Afaik a location hasn't been set yet
05/26/2021 <Mr.L> oh...lol
05/26/2021 <Mr.B> I think my little place is a good candidate
05/26/2021 <Mr.L> so to proceed i just need to cheat
05/26/2021 <Mr.B> Yeah afaik
05/26/2021 <Mr.L> works for me!
05/26/2021 <Mr.B> Oh, so what I'm thinking is, bomb pack in the industrial place, then use it to blow a wall, which also gives you access to a previously inaccessible area in the adjacent board. With some other special thing
05/26/2021 <Mr.L> btw even having designed about 1/3 of this map i am still lost in a good way.
05/26/2021 <Mr.L> what the ok that was good. welp, i can hear people's reaction to the pipe of souls already. thinking 1, 5, 10, 15 for starting gem counts needs to be more generous than it is now. it's nice to have the limits but unless/until we also do WARP ZONES...\ i am looking fwd to what you're doing Mr.B. in any case this is great so far, thanks to you both for indulging this weird group project desire
05/26/2021 <Mr.L> * this is great * we will probably be found out immediately, or suspicion will fall on rbts. not sure which * is pipe of souls supposed to drain all gems every time you go into it? at the start? * do we want * some stuff in the ship needs fixing. do we want me to just figure out what and leave it to someone to integrate into a canonical version?
05/26/2021 <Mr.C> yes I am hoping bomb is what you find Mr. B's place. * yes it is * ya probs * Ya * We want * I'll integrate your fixed ship when I am ready to edit the starting board to add ch3 hallucinations
05/26/2021 <Mr.C> Tell me if this is feasible or wanted: My thought is to have 'beacons' that you can activate and you're just entering a 'beacon board' by one passage or other. when the game detects your presence in one particular area, that beacon is 'lit' and it lights up a minimap that dominates the center of the beacon board
05/26/2021 <Mr.B> In Phoebus?
05/26/2021 <Mr.C> yes. as a way to give people an overhead map sense, or as a mechanism for fast travel perhaps (using transporters to warp between beacons perhaps)
05/26/2021 <Mr.L> ok. should we do something else with teh status screen then? (right now part of its purpose is to let players choose a 'spawn point')
05/26/2021 <Mr.B> Oh really? I didn't realize that
05/26/2021 <Mr.C> yah. it's set up to have up to 3 spawn points
05/26/2021 <Mr.L> yep
05/26/2021 <Mr.C> I'm just trying to find some way to give the player access to a map without involving the death rebirth cycle
05/26/2021 <Mr.L> right.
05/26/2021 <Mr.C> I'll mock something up
05/26/2021 <Mr.L> right. if we decide to keep that spawn screen we can always re-use the other slots for some other flavor-text or status check
05/26/2021 <Mr.C> I think the spawn points is a good forcing function
05/26/2021 <Mr.L> ok
05/26/2021 <Mr.C> this would primarily be for map viewing
05/26/2021 <Mr.L> oh so you're mainly thinking about mapping, OK. that makes sense. we could always put a spawn point near one of the key beacons as well so the player has a few they can use when they respawn
05/26/2021 <Mr.C> so like, I'm thinking there's a little structure you enter and there's a minimap in the center of the screen, and depending on what passage you're adjacent to, A different 'you are here' object will be flashing
05/26/2021 <Mr.L> oo yes. and this is one of our rare 'light' rooms, i assume
05/26/2021 <Mr.C> yes
05/26/2021 <Mr.L> yes, that sounds good
05/26/2021 <Mr.C> okay cool, once we have the final overhead map it can be zima'd. possibly first mapped to a white-to-green-to-black gradient for that classic sci fi display goodness. or a bright green to dark green to black
05/26/2021 <Mr.L> ... zima-ing won't make it too obvs anymore?
05/26/2021 <Mr.C> not after NoMoSno
05/26/2021 <Mr.C> the removing of background to make an area look anemic and washed out works a treat
05/26/2021 <Mr.C>

05/27/2021 <Mr.L> nice. we may want a couple of regular plants on left, but i would say we don't need to worry about that just yet
05/27/2021 <Mr.C> every 7 plants is a new upgrade rn?
05/27/2021 <Mr.L> i suspect we'll want something easter-eggish on the far left because it's a bit out of the way, but we probably won't want to put anything essential there because it's far out of the way (even assuming i do what i'm getting an inkling to do and build something south of the coral)
05/27/2021 <Mr.L> it's 7 then 15 then 50, which honestly, i need to change. it should probably be every 10 plants ups gems by about 5, until player caps at like...idk 20 gems? (10 regular plants, so in that scheme the giant one is like 4 plants) mostly thinking of paralleling the dessicated plants, but in retrospect, that probably isn't needed since there's so many healthy ones near center
05/27/2021 <Mr.C> I'm thinking the map rooms will look something like those sensor towers on the left
05/27/2021 <Mr.C>

05/27/2021 <Mr.L> YES. that was capslock but i stand by it
05/27/2021 <Mr.B> Going to bed but :thumbsup: To everything
05/27/2021 <Mr.C>

05/27/2021 <Mr.C> Something like this?
05/27/2021 <Mr.B> Looks cool
05/27/2021 <Mr.C> so if we're going to do this as a re-enter when zapped thing, one of three things needs to happen
05/27/2021 <Mr.C> 1) The design needs to be such that re-entering to a wraparound point is an expected option
05/27/2021 <Mr.C> 2) There needs to be an object reading TIME and warping the player back to the airlock
05/27/2021 <Mr.C> 3) The wraparound stuff needs to go
05/27/2021 <Mr.C> I like option 2 for its phoebusness
05/27/2021 <Mr.L> yes
05/27/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown STATION.ZZT 8.74 KB
05/27/2021 <Mr.C>

05/27/2021 <Mr.C> v0.2
05/27/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown STATION.ZZT 8.32 KB
05/27/2021 <Mr.C> still 60 stats for populating the space with enemies and decorations
05/27/2021 <Mr.C> The s/S are player sensor locations, the red fakes are potential monster spawn points.

05/27/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown STATION.ZZT 11.58 KB
05/27/2021 <Mr.C> There; it's playable all the way through
05/27/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown STATION.ZZT 11.60 KB
05/27/2021 <Mr.C> If you get a chance to poke at it let me know, it needs decoration still
05/27/2021 <Mr.L> is this door supposed to do something when i touch it
05/27/2021 <Mr.L>

05/27/2021 <Mr.C> ya, it does when I touch it. hmm
05/27/2021 <Mr.L> i know why, i think i cleared onewayE before touching it
05/27/2021 <Mr.C> OneWayE all gone
05/27/2021 <Mr.L> and it's using a naive #bind, so
05/27/2021 <Mr.C> so it removed the code
05/27/2021 <Mr.L> yep. ok well, i'm going to re-darken the board and zap it
05/27/2021 <Mr.C> what happens when you put code after a #bind and there's no object to bind to? can I just add a #die and call it a day? I can! that works fine
05/27/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown STATION.ZZT 11.61 KB
05/27/2021 <Mr.L> ok good show overall. the reset position thing stops working if you 'depart the station' while inside, which may be making teh trek back trollier than expected (idk if intentional)
05/27/2021 <Mr.C> Yes. Though tbh after departing station maybe just turn off enemies
05/27/2021 <Mr.L> yeah
05/27/2021 <Mr.C> oh wait. There, that'll do it
05/27/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown STATION.ZZT 11.69 KB
05/27/2021 <Mr.L> gj Mr.C
05/27/2021 <Mr.C> 1.0 with decoration. Hopefully no regressions
05/27/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown STATION.ZZT 14.46 KB
05/27/2021 <Mr.C> Last one for the night. Given it is what it is, I'm on the fence as to whether it will straight up give the game away before phoebus project even gets a chance to come out :X
05/27/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown STATION.ZZT 14.54 KB
05/27/2021 <Mr.L> heheh. well, we do have some time to be sure. zin's thing doesn't even start officially till june 1, so if you want it to be a believable outsider probably the earliest credible release is the 3rd or 4th.
05/27/2021 <Mr.C> Yah it can sit for a bit.
05/27/2021 <Mr.L> i don't think we should necessarily try to do phoebus by the 9th
05/27/2021 <Mr.C> 9th is two weeks from yesterday
05/27/2021 <Mr.L> yeah.
05/27/2021 <Mr.L> LOL @Mr.C: 7:35 AM] LBC: Hi :wave: what is the deadline for this contest?
05/27/2021 <Mr.C> Zinfandel posted it in raocow's general chat, I figure now's as good a time as any to start planting that seed
05/27/2021 <Mr.L> hehehe
05/27/2021 <Mr.B> Haha
05/27/2021 <Mr.C> This kevedit is crashing so im putting this here for now
05/27/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown aamusii.zzt 4.21 KB
05/29/2021 <Mr.C> forking 29a from 26a. 26a was forked from 25a
05/29/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown PHOE526a.zzt 157.18 KB
05/29/2021 <Mr.C> we're starting to fill in
05/29/2021 <Mr.C>

05/30/2021 <Mr.C> okay HMMMM. I've just been throwing whatever into phoebus project, I had a bit of free time this week so I attacked it, without a plan. I'm not sure how wrinkly we want everything to get - is it better for it to be super dense, or for each board to have a central idea
05/30/2021 <Mr.L> hmm
05/30/2021 <Mr.C> also I have really locked a lot of what I've done behind experiencing the messages in order, but that's liable to get frustrating
05/30/2021 <Mr.L> oh you mean like players running around trying to experience them in the right order so their game can progress
05/30/2021 <Mr.C> yes.
05/31/2021 <Mr.C> Possible TCtr mod: Add an #others:reset so that objects on screen can be alerted when the player has departed, and by extension can prepare themselves for a players return
05/31/2021 <Mr.C> forking 31a from 29a
06/01/2021 <Mr.L> lol LBC
06/01/2021 <Mr.C> the best ARGs are the ones people don't even know they're playing
06/01/2021 <Mr.B> Is it expected that oldbies stay out of the neat game jam? And just judge?
06/01/2021 <Mr.C> What I've gathered about the neat thing jam is that submissions opened today but it was fine to work on things before, it's okay for oldbies to participate but the main line of support would be to new participants
06/01/2021 <Mr.C> aaaaaahhhhhh
06/01/2021 <Mr.C>

06/01/2021 <Mr.C> kevedit is crashing a LOT now
06/01/2021 <Mr.L> just on phoebus or generally
06/01/2021 <Mr.C> this is the newest windows build
06/01/2021 <Mr.C> there are a few things that consistently cause it to crash. holding PGDN to move through the board list. testing any music longer than 3 #play statements
06/01/2021 <Mr.L> that #play thing for real
06/01/2021 <Mr.C> yes. zedit is now the only good editor. the very nice upshot versus the last bout of crashing is that saving never corrupts the file, so as long as you save generously and often you are good, in spite of much crashing no work lost so far. wild and colorful:
06/01/2021 <Mr.L> nobody's doing anything in coral south yet right
06/01/2021 <Mr.C> correct
06/01/2021 <Mr.C> I’m putting on the brakes for now, but I do eventually want to drop that I’m considering a science fiction theme
06/01/2021 <Mr.C>

06/01/2021 <Mr.L> Interesting. Like a zzt composition?
06/01/2021 <Mr.C> For the neat thing jam
06/01/2021 <Mr.L> Nice
06/01/2021 <Mr.C> forked 601a from 531a. I also changed all instances of @Plant so that as ch2 and ch3 come about you become more aphasic. I blued out a bunch of my boards. I've done my best to set things up so that we can have 4+ research stations in the game of which any 3 are required. I haven't integrated shipfix yet, but I think we should probably restrict the player to traveling south first (by adding invisible barriers to the origin board that vanish when 'kra' is set) so that the first unlock is a given and the player knows they are looking for a similar-looking set of messages
06/01/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown PHOE601a.zzt 204.29 KB
06/03/2021 <Mr.C> while I'm thinking about it: Opening schene of phoebus project is actually your ship in space. there's a radio going constantly, all kinds of screens with stuff playing on them strewn around, lots of stuff just left out, a sort of quarantine-era bachelor pad. there's a bunch of emails that say "Billing Problem - Contact us now!" and similar
06/03/2021 <Mr.B> sounds good to me
06/03/2021 <Mr.C> and a phone or pad with a gig app open and you're going down to this planet because there's an open gig there to take chemometric readings. "chemometer provided on site, See the onsite instructor for details"
06/03/2021 <Mr.C> onsite instructor is a skeleton holding a cell phone
06/03/2021 <Mr.C> and the player is like "well lets get the gig over with, I'm ready for duty"
06/08/2021 <Mr.C>

06/08/2021 <Mr.C> Trying to be conservative. Considering posting this to neat thing as LBC
06/08/2021 <Mr.B> Neat. I think a newbie would not know about changing the lines to lines to avoid visual artifacts, or is it just doing it correctly here? Actually I don't know what's going on there
06/08/2021 <Mr.B> That's well done. Are they objects?
06/08/2021 <Mr.C> Yes, It’s in response to Asie and dos explaining about step values
06/08/2021 <Mr.B> Oh ok. I haven't been keeping up with the chat
06/08/2021 <Mr.C> this might be a more realistic option
06/08/2021 <Mr.C>

06/08/2021 <Mr.B> Yes. Wait is that also putting solids back where it came from? Or are there solids underneath the objects?
06/08/2021 <Mr.C> They’re just sliding into some fakes in the wall
06/08/2021 <Mr.B> Ooh on my little phone i couldn't see the texture
06/10/2021 <Mr.C> A phoebus idea: follow the wire puzzle. need to start up a thing to open the thing but the generator powering the thing needs to be kicked over. follow the line from the opening thing to the powering thing, and along the way there is nasty bullet or possibly even STAR times. You must get past the bullets/stars in order to keep following the line to the generator. another one is, trigger the traps in the right order: an active trap checks #if alligned if not any bullet which causes the trap to shoot in all 4 directions. Getting shot toggles whether a trap is active or not. The traps must shoot each other in the right order to finally shoot some breakables guarding a thing. The trap's states (inactive, watching, waiting for bullets to clear, shooting/just finished shooting) are indicated by distinct chars... bumping to 610a from 601a
06/10/2021 <Mr.L> Hmm mmmmmmm I think I like this
06/11/2021 <Mr.C> Too weird and esoteric?
06/11/2021 <Mr.C>

06/11/2021 <Mr.L> I think it would be fine if the player sees it / does a version that's slightly less involved earlier on in the game? so like maybe a version where they just press the button, and a version where they just move one or two blocks, then this? (also, if this is a bright board, it looks like a player could get easily softlocked)
06/11/2021 <Mr.C> It'll have to be dark, but it's also harder to softlock than it looks. A mini version is doable
06/11/2021 <Mr.C> bumping to 612a. I created a mini-circuit, all the functionality of the main circuit but in closer quarters so you can see what the heck is going on
06/12/2021 <Mr.C> I think it's good now. It made zeta crash once, which isn't great, but what can ya do
06/12/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown STATION.ZZT 14.93 KB
06/12/2021 <Mr.C> Here's a "compiled" one with all the developer stuff removed
06/12/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown APOLLO.ZZT 14.80 KB
06/12/2021 <Mr.C> Fixed the crash. One of the steppy bois was steppin out into oblivion
06/12/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown APOLLO2.ZZT 15.44 KB
06/12/2021 <Mr.C> Very much fiddling at this point
06/12/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown APOLLO2.ZZT 15.43 KB
06/12/2021 <Mr.C>

06/12/2021 <Mr.C>

06/13/2021 <Mr.C> This feels about ready. Maybe too much text at the beginning
06/13/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown APOLLO.ZZT 16.62 KB
06/13/2021 <Mr.C> Added a bonus if you get hit 10 or fewer times
06/13/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown APOLLO.ZZT 17.05 KB
06/13/2021 <Mr.C> Also shrunk down the front text to something a bit more manageable
06/13/2021 <Mr.B> wow I am definitely not getting the bonus, I can't seem to get past the yellow door room. It always gets so full of enemies when I show up and I run out of ammo. Paused for movie time but I'll try again later tonight. A powerup to hold more ammo might be nice
06/13/2021 <Mr.C> I’ll add another bomb terminal closer to the door
06/13/2021 <Mr.B> Wait I think I missed something. Wasn't using bombs at all. My bad for rushing
06/13/2021 <Mr.C> You might not have reached the first one, If you were being blocked at yelllow door room The first one is in there
06/13/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown APOLLO.ZZT 17.12 KB
06/13/2021 <Mr.L> finally dling this
06/13/2021 <Mr.C> I think the final room is a better ramp now. the first bomb terminal is right by the door, if you hide back out in the hallway you can just evade the explosion radius. It took a couple tries but I managed to get paid a bonus
06/18/2021 <Mr.C> I dreamt the next LBC game was a game called ZOZ (with a custom font where the Z is mirrored) that is in turn itself about a game of the same name: an open, GTA-like world that progressively finds out about more of your fears and builds a customized nightmare city. The ML is so sophisticated that over time the city becomes populated with people from your past and repeats verbatim things that person said to you that you never told it about. Then it proceeds to guess your passwords and gives those people progressively more control over your life. Your 8th grade bully, as they were then and not aged up 25 years, with access to all your social media, And if you fight back, they’re given all your banking info as well
06/18/2021 <Mr.C> sometime after 8pm, thinking about having LBC post this to neat thing judge-free zone for "feedback" then regardless of the feedback received, have him say "I reworked it" and then post station
06/18/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown rocket.zzt 15.98 KB
06/19/2021 <Mr.L> i'm around, though i am in a thing today. you might be wondering 'what is Mr.L up so early for' and the answer is to play Mr.C's zzt game because i seem to have woken up early and i'm rolling with it to play Mr.C's zzt game
06/19/2021 <Mr.C> Today was an early Saturday day guess we gettin old. ROCKET appropriates the code from station to make a demake of the demake of the game that isn’t yet made. And maybe if we don’t want to give the game away too badly we only release ROCKET, after deciding on a consistent code format for LBC And expurgating our own styles from the code
06/19/2021 <Mr.L> i think i have to play this later sorry lol, but yes
06/19/2021 <Mr.B> My getting old early Saturday was getting up early and biking to the bakery for donuts. The 18 mile round trip really builds character
06/19/2021 <Mr.L> amazing. we should leave in at least one thing from each of our styles, and add a couple more for good measure
06/19/2021 <Mr.B> What would be our signature code things?
06/19/2021 <Mr.C> So here are my thoughts: @Human Readable Name, #send Human:msg, messages are one letter and one number, Possibly starting with z0 and working backward
06/19/2021 <Mr.L> is this markers of Mr.L code, or markers of Mr.C or Mr.B code
06/19/2021 <Mr.C> These are what I fell into while making Phoebus
06/19/2021 <Mr.L> hehehe that sounds like a mishmash of a reasonable person and the way the three of us would code things
06/19/2021 <Mr.B> Doesn't that format cause problems? A1 a2 etc
06/19/2021 <Mr.C> Only capital letters are in @Name, messages are all lowercase
06/19/2021 <Mr.L> actually that's kinda how the torchbot works in phoebus, come to think
06/19/2021 <Mr.C> Yes that’s where I started
06/19/2021 <Mr.L> and i think i made it kinda human readable because i knew other humans (you two) would have to be able to read it
06/19/2021 <Mr.C> Possibly commented code?
06/19/2021 <Mr.C> turns out it works fine !
06/19/2021 <Mr.L> you just have to keep track of which label does what ridiculous thing. mostly torchbot was designed that way, but it's also designed so that in theory we'd never have to revisit it
06/19/2021 <Mr.L> oh hmm, maybe that could cause problems
06/19/2021 <Mr.B> Like instead of reading a10 it read a1 or something
06/19/2021 <Mr.L> (i still included the flags on the board so it would be clear what flags to avoid and how many were being used)
06/19/2021 <Mr.C> Yes I think one number is the limit, though we must experiment to be sure
06/19/2021 <Mr.B> One Mr.B-ism is I always call loops #l, And if that ever creates a conflict the other loop on the board is ll, But I like the idea of coming up with novel conventions
06/19/2021 <Mr.L> heheh
06/19/2021 <Mr.B> For boards that are tight on space I adopted :z at the last line of code in lieu of #end
06/19/2021 <Mr.L> i am an #end command abolitionist
06/19/2021 <Mr.B> I am definitely inconsistent, When I have complicated engines I always call the lead object @maestro; This is making me wish I had put easter eggs in commented code
06/19/2021 <Mr.C> easter egg: I made ‘#play h20’ the sound effect on the water heater
06/19/2021 <Mr.C> another one I’m doing is no /i/i/i#command, #command is always on its own line
06/19/2021 <Mr.C> Okay so - if we want it to look like nobody ever but not use up too too many bytes
06/19/2021 <Mr.C> * Internal messages start at z0 and go z1 z2...y0 y1 etc.
06/19/2021 <Mr.C> * External messages are human readable, all lowercase
06/19/2021 <Mr.C> * Names are all human readable and start with a capital letter
06/19/2021 <Mr.C> * All objects with code have a @Name or a #bind Name (makes easy to search for them)
06/19/2021 <Mr.C> * Choices are formatted:
06/19/2021 <Mr.C> !c-0;choice one
06/19/2021 <Mr.C> !c-1;choice two
06/19/2021 <Mr.C> * #send label is always used; also the fact that #send is skipped if the label is zapped can be abused
06/19/2021 <Mr.C> * #play commands are all uppercase
06/19/2021 <Mr.C> * last #end is skipped entirely
06/19/2021 <Mr.C> the different formatting for the labels is really keen, especially using c-0 for choices, I am not 100% on #send label being used all the time, that adds a lot of bytes
06/23/2021 <Mr.C> making 23a, I'm pretty happy with the inside of this ship
06/23/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown PHOE623a.zzt 248.64 KB
06/23/2021 <Mr.C> 19.7k cuttin it close
06/23/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown PHOE623a.zzt 251.45 KB
06/23/2021 <Mr.C> There, fixed a couple bugs
06/23/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown PHOE623a.zzt 251.60 KB
06/24/2021 <Mr.C> except for the map board this about does it for my section
06/24/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown PHOE624a.zzt 252.76 KB
06/24/2021 <Mr.C> oh yes and the endgame sequence, hallucinations, rescue, a world with no words
06/24/2021 <Mr.B> excellent good work
06/24/2021 <Mr.C> I think a case could be made for you leaving on your own ship and having a ship sequence where all the words are gone, y'all'l have to weigh on though once you get a chance to see the incoming ship sequence
06/25/2021 <Mr.C> I'm not sold on it but here's an updated origin board with hallucinations and touching the last hallucination teleports you do a different board
06/25/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown PHOE625a.zzt 263.28 KB
06/26/2021 <Mr.C> The rescue ship
06/26/2021 <Mr.C>

06/26/2021 <Mr.C> possibly more obliquely styled
06/26/2021 <Mr.C>

06/26/2021 <Mr.L> Heck yes
06/26/2021 <Mr.C> little crab people come out, repo your shit, pull you onto their ship, and then do that player death trick (possibly multiple times) to restore your ability to speak. then you're back on your ship flying away, your ipad shows you got paid for the gig, and your fridge is beeping at you because there's no food in it. this is a possible ending.
06/26/2021 <Mr.B> Looks good.
06/27/2021 <Mr.C> added cute lil start board
06/27/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown PHOE627a.zzt 295.37 KB
06/27/2021 <Mr.C> story board is 19999 bytes o_o
06/27/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown PHOE627a.zzt 295.31 KB
06/28/2021 <Mr.C> Starting to recode some objects in the "LBC Style"
06/28/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown PHOE627a.zzt 295.26 KB
06/28/2021 <Mr.C> I love !c-0;choice as a convention. Makes the labels tied to dialog options really stand out
06/28/2021 <Mr.C> are either of yall around to do a last pass through LBC's neat board before it gets submitted tomorrow
06/28/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown APOLLO-S.ZZT 17.33 KB
06/28/2021 <Mr.L> i am around
06/28/2021 <Mr.C> I just finished making the code nearly LBC-compliant. Otherwise not much has changed. I don't want to release it if it's gonna give the game away before we even get a chance to release phoebus
06/28/2021 <Mr.C> minimap?
06/28/2021 <Mr.C>

ED: ATLAS FOR COMPARISON:

06/28/2021 <Mr.C> fast travel beacons marked in gray
06/29/2021 <Mr.C> Fast travel beacons are set up. Travel between any visited beacon. There is space for an additional 4 fast travel locations. The way the minimap works is really cool
06/29/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown PHOE628a.zzt 303.91 KB
06/29/2021 <Mr.C> when you enter you shove a boulder out of the way, which unlocks that location
06/29/2021 <Mr.C> hoo boy. I found a bug in classiczoo but I can't tell asie about it because it only affects phoebus
06/29/2021 <Mr.B> ack, what's the bug?
06/29/2021 <Mr.C> There's a board you can save on in classiczoo and you can't restore the save or the game crashes
06/29/2021 <Mr.B> weird
06/29/2021 <Mr.C> you can open the board in the classiczoo editor and save, but you can't quit the editor on that board, you have to change boards before quitting, so it's some kind of bug in how it's unloading the board from memory. doesn't affect 3.2 at all
06/29/2021 <Mr.L> anything special about the board that we're not keeping secret? that we could maybe do a test case and then just go WHISTLE WHISTLE WHISTLE when asie asks where the test case came from
06/29/2021 <Mr.C> as soon as I figure out what's special about the board I'll post a bug report. I can't figure it out tho. all this to say, I've gone back to exclusively testing in 3.2 until phoebus comes out
06/29/2021 <Mr.L> hehehe
06/29/2021 <Mr.C> I'm going to wait until the last hour to submit apollo station, but I don't think the entry will arouse suspicion. There are a couple good boards delivered by unlikely entrants already
06/29/2021 <Mr.L> the only thing i noticed in apollo playtest was that you don't seem to respawn top left if you die in the top right with the tigers, is that intentional?
06/29/2021 <Mr.C> yes. I wasn't sure how to indicate its intentionality. It's a second spawn point right before the "boss". The other option is to put 2 transporters right there (1 up 1 down), force the player to respawn top left, and reduce the difficulty of the boss area... I just had an idea, actually
06/29/2021 <Mr.C> There, made it so it says "drone respawn point set" when you spawn in the top right for the boss room
06/29/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown APOLLO-S.ZZT 16.66 KB
06/29/2021 <Mr.C> also I changed around like 100 #BINDs
06/29/2021 <Mr.B> XD
06/29/2021 <Mr.C> I discovered a thing: you can make a little library of #BINDs by taking objects and setting them to cycle 0 then #BINDing to those, so now I have a little #BIND library in the top corner, and that made it super easy to mess around with pre-bound objects without worrying about stat order issues. if all your binds are in the top left corner, if you cut the entire board and then re-paste it, kevedit will reorder the stats left to right to to bottom. It ensures your library are all the lowest-numbered stats
06/29/2021 <Mr.B> neat, So an object with a non-zero cycle bound to a cycle 0 object will execute?
06/29/2021 <Mr.C> yup! works with both pre-#bind and in-code #bind
06/29/2021 <Mr.B> wow. I never got into bind magic, too unstable for me to want to mess with it
06/29/2021 <Mr.C> me either, but LBC is super into it so I'm developing techniques to stabilize it
06/29/2021 <Mr.B> I keep thinking LBC stands for Little Blue C_
06/29/2021 <Mr.C> :open_mouth:
06/29/2021 <Mr.B> little blue caboose for a cute thing, cadaver for a macabre thing
06/29/2021 <Mr.C> LittleBlueCadaver is pretty good
06/29/2021 <Mr.B> It's evocative
06/29/2021 <Mr.B> Little Blue Chameleon
06/29/2021 <Mr.C> Might have to change social media presence, littlebluecadaver.itch.io and so forth
06/29/2021 <Mr.B> it's both cute and gross
06/29/2021 <Mr.C> aye. something fun to try in this version: ?+ch3 on the mission central screen to make some hallucinations appear for talking
06/29/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown PHOE628a.zzt 303.43 KB
06/29/2021 <Mr.C> it can be done!!!
06/29/2021 <Mr.C>

07/01/2021 <Mr.C> Filling out the corners. I might be a bit gem-heavy out at the rim but I wanted to both reward people who made it all the way out there and also to give them some additional time to explore. It may just be a thing where we add more upgrade tiers because there is score inflation
07/01/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown PHOE630a.zzt 311.53 KB
07/02/2021 <Mr.B> I've been in a weird funk lately where I stay up very late and do nothing
07/02/2021 <Mr.C> next time you get the funk pour your soul into ZZT boards
07/02/2021 <Mr.B> Ok
07/02/2021 <Mr.C> I mean, if you can find it in there somewhere let it out like a drop of irish blood, get a pin
07/03/2021 <Mr.B> https://twitter.com/perdricof/status/1411303701210439683?s=09
07/08/2021 <Mr.B> I'm thinking if we don't finish Phoebus by the end of the month my ability to work on it will dry up so I'm just gonna unilaterally set that goal
07/08/2021 <Mr.L> ok i should do the same
07/08/2021 <Mr.L> right, feebis it is
07/08/2021 <Mr.C> i know it probably doesn't need to be said, but please feel free to change/delete/rearrange whatever whenever
07/08/2021 <Mr.C> just saying I realize I wrote 51 federalist essays but don't go all john jay on me, feel free to chop em up
07/08/2021 <Mr.L> heheh. federalist like the founders or federalist like the website?!
07/08/2021 <Mr.C> there's a website?
07/08/2021 <Mr.L> yeah it's a right wing rag. i think it used to be more thinky but it may have gone down a bit of a trumphole (pro-trump-hole)
07/08/2021 <Mr.C> ew, "gone down a bit of a trumphole" is gross on at least three levels
07/08/2021 <Mr.L> yeah.
07/08/2021 <Mr.C> hey make feebis
07/08/2021 <Mr.L> lol, ok Mr.C where is latest build
07/08/2021 <Mr.C> in the drive
07/08/2021 <Mr.L> oh brilliant OF COURSE. the drive folder i specifically established, how could i have ever thought to look there
07/08/2021 <Mr.C> also there are hecka old versions, they represent daily progress
07/08/2021 <Mr.L> good ship render. phoebus test initiated, will continue tomorrow night
07/08/2021 <Mr.B> lol we just started watching hamilton on monday and I definitely though I am the john jay of phoebus
07/08/2021 <Mr.C> phoebus aka apollo was for many centuries associated with or considered to be the first horseman of the apocalypse, riding his white horse. i did not know that but maybe there's somewhere to add a reference to that connection
07/09/2021 <Mr.C> how goes a febas
07/09/2021 <Mr.L> i didn't do more testing last night! but i will 2night
07/10/2021 <Mr.B> To test febus do I need to do +bomb? Bc the bomb pack is on my board?
07/10/2021 <Mr.C> yah mostly
07/10/2021 <Mr.B> Anything else I should know
07/10/2021 <Mr.C> You can type ?+ch3 on the main board to skip to the ending. and I've been over and over those boards so much it's hard to know whether it's capturing any of the "nuclear frisson"
07/10/2021 <Mr.L> went north of mines and got an auto-teleport back to base. now i have 19 gems
07/10/2021 <Mr.C> where north of mines, the plinth?
07/10/2021 <Mr.L> yes
07/10/2021 <Mr.C> I see what's wrong. the plinth sends all:c1 and TCtr has a c1. I need to change my label
07/10/2021 <Mr.L> this repopulated the connection blockers after a connection was made

07/10/2021 <Mr.L> also, i did not realize the idea was to clear a path and i'm not sure how a player could realize this in a dark room
07/10/2021 <Mr.C> there's a smaller one in a spot you're more likely to reach before the bomb
07/10/2021 <Mr.L> i should be clear: i mean that for both of them. you simply can't cover both the button and the relevant puzzle area in one torch, and even if you can, you only see the breakable
07/10/2021 <Mr.C> yes, that's true
07/10/2021 <Mr.L> also i realize this cuts down the weirdness, but a set pattern to reset to might feel a little more...fair in terms of puzzle solutions
07/10/2021 <Mr.C> Oh! I hadn't even thought to do that
07/10/2021 <Mr.L> granted i did it pretty easily, i was legitimately afraid i'd be stuck for multiple attempts by dumb luck, even after i cheated and saw the solution in the code
07/10/2021 <Mr.C> confirmed, it is not possible to get it stuck
07/10/2021 <Mr.L> oh that's not what i mean, i mean you can do everything right but still fail an attempt, and that could (as far as i can tell) happen many times if you're unlucky enough
07/10/2021 <Mr.C> oh yes, the ideal solution isn't very satisfying or smart. it's reset and then mash the button until the earliest possible option to connect appears
07/10/2021 <Mr.L> the warps are very nice
07/10/2021 <Mr.C> A preset solution would be much cooler and very possible with the given setup. I would love an assist on a good slider puzzle to put there
07/10/2021 <Mr.L> i may take a stab
07/10/2021 <Mr.C> north of mines is fixed
07/10/2021 <Mr.L> one thing you COULD do, if you want to get some weird in there is put a single blue fake in the middle and if it gets blocked, THEN there's a malicious #change. however I'd be really worried about how to convey to the player that that is not a thing they should do when we're trying to be more minimalist on words to start with. ok i have a couple more things to do then bed tonight
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> taking a sort-of sick day. is the latest phoebus in the drive?
07/13/2021 <Mr.L> i think it should be unless Mr.C did moar stuff since
07/13/2021 <Mr.C> I keep it always
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> I am playing le feeb, is the ship board busted? is that why there is that SHIPFIXED .brd? at any rate I can't get past the ship board. looks softlocked.
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> oh lol didn't realize I could climb over the clothes
07/13/2021 <Mr.C> Probably need to make the path flicker oslt
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> good stuff so far Mr.C. I like the title sequence that plays after you start the navigation. ok here are questions and observations:
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> 1. in the ship the first time I played through there was laundry I couldn't clean up. but the second time I played through I could clean it all up
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> 2. the first time you touch the inbox (at least the one on the left) it doesn't show the menu
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> 3. The first time I went in the yellow ghost place I didn't get any dialogue. but I loaded and went there again and got dialogue before the warp
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> 4. The crashed satellite isn't responding to my choices anymore. Not sure if that is intentional, The options show up but choices just close the dialogue box; Wait this is not entirely true, I can get a couple options to respond
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> 5. health upgrade didn't do anything
07/13/2021 <Mr.L> that's on me
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> I got as far as I THINK I could get without a bomb and then did +bomb to continue
07/13/2021 <Mr.L> tbh unless we can think of another upgrade i think we should maybe even eliminate the panel and/or just make it auto-upgrade because it might as well be doing that
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> yeah maybe. Also I think we should put some note in the ship to remind the player what they are trying to accomplish
07/13/2021 <Mr.L> that is a good idea
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> Should I be able to access either of the first two research stations before the bomb?
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> 6. Opinion: there should be a warp tower on a board adjacent to the ship. the player is gonna use it a lot
07/13/2021 <Mr.L> should that maybe be one we somehow only unlock once another warp tower has unlocked? like it's just a default option then we do the push-out-the-slider thing like lancer does with teh quick stairs in for elise?
07/13/2021 <Mr.C> that's what the inbox is for - but I hadn't populated it with the mission yet. I have a solid idea for how to add a tower to the main board that only unlocks after visiting at least one other tower
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> I don't know what memories of drowning is but I have had a lot of them
07/13/2021 <Mr.C> it's random whether you have the motivation to clean up. With enough persistence it does all eventually clean up. The hope is that most players will lose motivation to clean after it gets progressively harder, as the character would. maybe there's a way to put that on rails. the problem is that board is already 19996 bytes
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> ah. I tried a lot but one object wouldn't go away. though this is a very minor thing. lol the file is already 313kb we gonna run out of space
07/13/2021 <Mr.C> 504kb is the limit for zeta on 3.2
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> ah ok
07/13/2021 <Mr.C> memories of drowning was something i put in very early while I was still just going with my gut. if it doesn't have enough thematic connection to the rest of the world it can be removed. Same with the vending machines. Those were like the first two builds
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> the machine is cool, though as a player it's confusing bc I can't tell if it's just for theatrics or important
07/13/2021 <Mr.C> yes, Though I think maybe that's something I should consider, after interacting with something thoroughly, have some universal indication that the interacting with it is done
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> yeah I was thinking of that, that would be helpful
07/13/2021 <Mr.L> i should redownload this
07/13/2021 <Mr.C> a "graying out" kind of feature that can be established early and used everywhere
07/13/2021 <Mr.L> plinth board is still gonna be broken. or wait lol
07/13/2021 <Mr.C> The one thing I straight up dislike but I'm not sure how to do it better is the little knob that forces the player south that disappears on returning to the board
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> in the ship?
07/13/2021 <Mr.C> immediately after first leaving the ship. the fact that it didn't stick out like a sore thumb is actually a really good sign
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> didn't notice at all but I don't claim to be especially observant of small details
07/13/2021 <Mr.C> awesome, well then it did its job
07/13/2021 <Mr.L> stuck here. 0 gems left, but still a few cycle of softlockability
07/13/2021 <Mr.L>

07/13/2021 <Mr.C> I can fix it there too. just have the object 2 steps west of the player constantly #put e fake will do it
07/13/2021 <Mr.C> then a pause will let the player press left but it will immediately put them east in the same cycle
07/13/2021 <Mr.L> yep, that is a good move
07/13/2021 <Mr.C> So memories of drowning - I guess after one interaction I should just have the sea creature skeleton vanish?
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> Yeah unless you want it to happen multiple times. lol I found a random tiger
07/13/2021 <Mr.C> Not really no, once is enough. Yeah I forget what I was doing with the tiger
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> Is there actually a suit or do you just gotta make do without it?
07/13/2021 <Mr.C> Antibaryonic suits are expensive mate. Though if we come up with one I have a way to make that place a lot less threatening
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> ah so a potential multiple route option
07/13/2021 <Mr.C> yes
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> multiple strategy at least
07/13/2021 <Mr.C> I thought maybe we put 4-5 chemometer slots and the player can do three of them. that way the extremely convoluted one with the purple wire can be skipped, and/or the one that you can accidentally destroy. though now we're on the last two weeks before going gold, it might be better to instead make the purple loop route less complicated and remove the option to destroy and keep the three that are there already
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> I assume the purple loop route is what I'm fixing with the little slider puzzles
07/13/2021 <Mr.C> yes, and the (now I'm realizing) insanely difficult bullet and ricochet puzzle at the very top
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> Is that the one where the objects transform and fire?
07/13/2021 <Mr.C> yes
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> I ran through that area and somehow managed to solve it I think Bc everything vanished
07/13/2021 <Mr.C> oh interesting
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> But I wasn't trying, Literally just passing through and I have no idea what it did
07/13/2021 <Mr.C> Yeah, I worry that a deliberate solve is nearly impossible but an accidental solve is highly probable. the experience is too lumpy
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> So I have been trying to play through as a tester but if I am going to catch up I may need to switch gears and have you give me the naked exposition of everything
07/13/2021 <Mr.C> Yes, one pass to edit down things that don't make intuitive sense is good then we can drill down and start cleaning up the mechanics
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> I'll finish playing through tonight
07/13/2021 <Mr.C> Also I'd love to be able to incorporate what you've done into the main branch, add it to the minimap and all that. There are 13 empty spots in the minimap currently

07/13/2021 <Mr.B> Yeah
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> Goal 1. Finish play though.
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> Goal 2. Clean up my factory board so you can incorporate it.
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> Goal 3. Talk high-level plans and think about westward expansion
07/13/2021 <Mr.C> Yes very. One other thing, given our truncated timeframe: I have more landscape in me if y'all want me to finish filling out the minimap, but if y'all have landscape in you I'd rather let you use the space. Also - One of the vending machines spits out a suit? A good sink for points
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> Sounds good to me
07/13/2021 <Mr.L> sure
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> I can probably come up with a few more puzzle-y things. Also I want to add some kind of monster thing of there isn't one already.
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> I found the dead repo
07/13/2021 <Mr.C> ya. if you want to see some live ones type ?+ch3 on the ship board and talk to the hallucinations. try that before you finish your playthrough
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> Yeah partly I need to play through it all so I have a sense of what gameplay/lore holes there are. is there anything to do in this room?
07/13/2021 <Mr.B>

07/13/2021 <Mr.C> the plan was to have lab 13 in there but I hadn't figured out how to give the player an antibaryonic suit
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> so I should just observe and move on
07/13/2021 <Mr.C> yes, assume there will be a lab in there
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> did you guys say the plinth board is borken?
07/13/2021 <Mr.C> it was, if you have 710 it's fixed
07/13/2021 <Mr.B> ok. I do
07/13/2021 <Mr.L> in fairness on my version it just starts broken, the next time you visit it works.
07/14/2021 <Mr.L> i'd like to claim something s of coral reef. i'll try to keep it somewhat on theme but it will probably be a little less dark and twisted than the rest, hope that's ok
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> that would be good, some contrast will help the dark bits stand out more
07/14/2021 <Mr.L> if we don't have all our scanning areas yet, that might be a place to have one? idk
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> scanning area?
07/14/2021 <Mr.L> uh..the places you have to use the scanner thing
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> yes
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> lol I haven't found a single one yet!
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> tower L. oh yes we can have as many labs as we need
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> so, wait, are the labs where you scan the chromometer?
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> yes
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> if you can figure out how to get in them
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> correct
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> which I have not
07/14/2021 <Mr.L> i've only gotten into one. curiously i think i got into two of them on a previous build? that or there was an...o maybe it was just an outdoor scan area
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> sounds like I need to make them a bit easier to break into. also I have mechanisms in place for however many labs as we want to make
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> I'm not sure which ones I should have been able to get into by now. arg

07/14/2021 <Mr.C> With the bomb you can get into all three
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> I may just need to play a bit more. something weird happened with this. maybe I didn't push far enough?
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> I might have oopsed it
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> oh duh bomb on the crystal thing
07/14/2021 <Mr.L> WHAT. WHAT
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> I... didn't think of that >_<
07/14/2021 <Mr.L> NEITHER DID I
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> sounds like I need to make that hint stronger
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> or we can have a different item
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> I like that sequence - the crystal shattering is a good unsettling image, as the shine slowly dies; oh yeah, a pick would be good there too
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> right I think Mr.L and I were both hung up on "BREAK". We can put a pick axe somewhere or something
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> oooo the sudden loss of words is chilling. this is more effective than some of the other things I think
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> its the big one. I'm glad it works in context
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> it's a real: oh crap something really is happening moment. so with the warps I think it might be possible to f them up by entering the passage, only moving one tile, then leaving
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> oops
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> I think I was trying to be fast
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> I KNEW there was a reason I was using sliderew and not boulder
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> do you have any extra bytes on the map board?
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> I'm trying to save them for the rest of the minimap
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> would just sliderew fix the problem?
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> yes. I can widen the thoroughfare by 1 if I use sliderew
07/14/2021 <Mr.L> Mr.C i think the torch at bottom of soul-well might be resulting in players getting trapped for a torch cycle and a half with that noise
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> which solves the step once and turn aroudn problem
07/14/2021 <Mr.L> idk if you meant that
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> I didn't. that happened very last time I tried it. I think I had it there for testing
07/14/2021 <Mr.L> i might be a moment before i'm ready for duty
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> oh yeah that torch is deffo not supposed to be there
07/14/2021 <Mr.L> ok i'm grabbing 1,6 and 2,7. if nobody has any other ideas on where to use it, i might do the freaky disappearing player thing in that region
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> perfect
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> yeah do it! that's your trick
07/14/2021 <Mr.L> ok
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> I'll claim a couple boards tomorrow but I gotta get to bed soon. Need to try to shake whatever it is I have
07/14/2021 <Mr.L> or maybe i'll do it in 1,7, the other boards won't be super-jammed. aight good luck, hope you get well real soon
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> what do you guys think about loading .txt files on the ship page every now and then, after certain events. maybe this complicates things too much, but there could be dialogue with the robot or something. like, did I just get crushed by a vending machine? I feel like I want someone to acknowledge what just happened. could be another opportunity to show the scary progression of language loss
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> That's true. A diary thing. Broca's aphasia aboard the SS BROCA
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> ever read flowers for algernon?
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> I wonder if anyone will know
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> I'm sure someone will get it, I did! could be a diary like that. Anyway I was thinking about it bc I think it's a bit of a waste if things happen and then go uncommented later. I think they might feel more significant and real if they are externalized in a dialogue or a diary or a computer report or something. I suggested the txt files bc I'm sure space on that board is an issue
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> stats are the big one everywhere except the big ship board
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> yeah used heavily for the unique graphic look I can see
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> txt files does give us some cool #if ch3 !-ent00ch3.txt; entry opportunities. lemme know when you ?+ch3 on the main board
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> holy crap all those moving around char 1's are super creepy
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> yay!
07/14/2021 <Mr.L> are we using [R] to mark scanneriffic places
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> yes
07/14/2021 <Mr.L> txt files couild be excellent. also, we can in theory use a different extension right? that doesn't make it impossible for people to open but it would lend an air of 'this is a spoiler don't open it'
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> and we can scale up the number of labs really easily, by using 1 more flag to track labs separate to progression of disease.
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> we can use any extension, maybe just number them all starting with ENT.000 ENT.001 and make ENT.000 not be used in game, but just say "hey these are spoilers don't open them unless you want spoiled" "thank you, love LBC"
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> lol classic zzt right there "please don't do this"
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> yep
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> are there supposed to be bullets stuck in ricochets here?
07/14/2021 <Mr.B>

07/14/2021 <Mr.C> no, oops
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> may want to have a #change bullet empty at the end of the trap thing
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> I feex
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> oh man, the dessicated plants moving around in the dark, that is creepy too. I mean I always could swear that I saw them move but thought maybe I was seeing things
07/14/2021 <Mr.L> no you weren't, they were moving
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> Do I need something else to be able to solve this?
07/14/2021 <Mr.B>

07/14/2021 <Mr.C> no that can be solved from the options alone
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> I think it might be broken
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> What happens when you type 'milovanje'
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> nothing
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> fek, its broken
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> ok so which labs are supposed to be openable right now
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> all
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> 3?
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> yes - satelite, crystal, and lab 14
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> I got crystal, this one is borked, and purple one is... well I'm not sure what remains to do
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> feel free to zap into that one there are passages in there
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> I did the two slidery puzzles, accidentally solved the ricochet puzzle (i'm guessing that's part of the lab 14), closed a circuit by a statue (I think), and turned on photovoltaic array. what am I missing?
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> that should be everything. there are three things, the big slider puzzle, the closed circuit by the statue and the ricochet puzzle
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> is photovoltaic array for lab 14?
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> the photovoltaic array is just for gem harvesting
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> ah
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> and disappointment
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> lol it was disappointment, but also unsurprising given the complete lack of light on the planet
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> yeah I don't know why it isn't working
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> if the ship board is light maybe we should have little light sources around it
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> but it's supposed to say "a photovoltaic array, here?" "that means" "this place must have orbited a star, once" as you walk up to it
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> hmm didn't catch that
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> yeah last time I played through it didn't do it
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> does this do nothing then?

07/14/2021 <Mr.C> that should be connected up
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> not part of lab 14? oh ok yeah I made it connected
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> so yes, you did everything to connect it
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> ok is there anywhere safe to zap in? maybe this is where I just do the +ch3 flag
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> you can ?+line2 to simulate a fully connected line
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> how do I get past the problem with the satellite part, a flag or a zap?
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> a zap will work there. break into the lab like a tin can and enter those passages
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> ty. lol wut my zzt froze on a board
07/14/2021 <Mr.B>

07/14/2021 <Mr.B> zeta is going bananas
07/14/2021 <Mr.B>

07/14/2021 <Mr.B> over and over again
07/14/2021 <Mr.L> good board. going to grab new version thursday and play again
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> 151 objects. daaaang
07/14/2021 <Mr.L> for now know it is possible to get that sweet 21-gem start
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> right after that is the good stuff. that board breaks classiczoo but i haven't had any problems since switching back to 3.2
07/14/2021 <Mr.B>

07/14/2021 <Mr.B> at the end of the game
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> yah what the heck is up with that
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> also how do I get to well of souls I didn't get that sweetness
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> red keycard gets you in
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> f now zeta is going BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRr
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> beyond the mines
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> red keycard where dat
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> inside the lab you zapped into, on the desk
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> oh. just said "red" haha
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> what version of zeta you on
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> not sure...

07/14/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: archive FEEBIS.zip 880.23 KB
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> still doin the thing where the color drains? or was it too much
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> it was possible but not very interesting. if we had more labs and the disease could progress some and then at the very end drain color, adn there were like 5-6 labs to do it would be better. as it is you play through too much of the game in an impaired state
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> @Mr.L have you gotten to the end yet?
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> let me know if the feebis in that feebis zip gives you problems still
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> So are you thinking, the game is replayable in the sense that there will be more labs than you need to complete the job/beat the game? not to mention the order you do things to get more words at different places
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> no, I'm thinking make the existing labs easier to get into and just have more labs to visit and only start to debilitate the player toward the end. I don't anticipate much replaying
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> ah gotcha
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> but yes, for full content clear you'd have to get really lucky to experience all the words before going chemometering
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> I was surprised to see that at the end, there are a couple things with a lot of readable text
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> I wasn't sure if the audience would think it was an oversight or if they'd take notice. I don't think they need to know why the player can recognize those words and not others. the deep lore is the port at the base of the player's neck is perfectly happy to feed the player fresh advertising but doesn't bother to assist the player in overcoming his aphasia even though it's totally capable
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> oh dang
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> I might add some more to that board to try and strengthen that point. I just hadn't come up with more ways to bring it home, So if you figure something out please feel free to add it in
07/14/2021 <Mr.L> i need to new version of feebis
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> okay I give latest one mo
07/14/2021 <Mr.L> ok
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> added
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> tbh I'm ambivalent about it. if the tech exists to fix it, then the planet isn't exactly the terrible danger we thought. There is knowledge to treat it, even if not used
07/14/2021 <Mr.L> i am actually probably bed soon
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> I get the final knife twist but I think it may detract from perhaps a more powerful simple stabbing message imo
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> That's fair. I was going for some points about large corps wield unbelievable power to assist the world in resolving its ills but stop the instant it results in less than maximum exploitation of their customer. but yah I'm good with it being just as it is too
07/14/2021 <Mr.L> wtf is with google drive downloading zzt files as mp3s
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> god only knows
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> @Mr.L you can weigh in on the ending when you get there, overall though I think it's great
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> I haven't made the path climbing over the pile of clothes flicker yet, so just know the pile of clothes is climbable and it will flicker Mr.L
07/14/2021 <Mr.L> k
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> I would think some garbled message about 5 stars, good work, new mission? and some garbled ad would be good. also an attempt to contact a physician but the same failure to connect. like, let's give the player a bit of hope that we can squash!
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> omg brutal. yes awesome
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> Like what's the dumb thing corporations do to address mental health problems? something totally ineffectual
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> precisely. also that track that plays when the repos come down is my favorite
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> and then make the screen fade to black
07/14/2021 <Mr.L> we ... fuck it's probably better to be super leftist political
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> yes, LBC is marxist. I decided that a while ago
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> Oh well I can really ramp that up
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> the whole game is about the separation of the player as worker from the means of production, via the app
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> I am remembering this scene from metropolis
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> and apollo station is a commentary on the irresponsibility of the MIC
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZpaWOLjWx0
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> oh man, this would be a good hallucination scene
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> this title card slaps
07/14/2021 <Mr.C>

07/14/2021 <Mr.B> yeah it's amazing. I would like to add something like that to the game
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> I hear you
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> have you worked on a title screen already? or brainstormed it
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> hadn't at all
07/14/2021 <Mr.L> going to try and write some cryptic hint that you ARE in fact supposed to stop existing for a moment to access this lab
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> yes, very much please do. I thought maybe that could be layer five
07/14/2021 <Mr.L> aight
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> we are a powerful culture. we can create and destroy you "if you do not possess this power do not believe you can escape this danger"
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> A thing that may or may not end up bearing fruit: LBC has stated on Twitter, in chat and in game, that the Make a Neat ZZT Board Jam was hosted by Worlds of ZZT. its possible someone will point out that it was actually Zinfandel hosting, and LBC can take that opportunity to ask how to fix an already submitted game
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> okay thanks for hot feedbacks
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> this was fun tho. glad I caught up
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> I look forward to blowing minds
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> it's cool and surprising that we managed to come up with an original gameplay idea in zzt. ofc really Mr. L. bc he came up with the engine. tbh I was worried that it would get very tedious, but the warps and minimap fix that
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> the subtle subnautica-inspired mechanic is real good
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> does subnautica have that "return to base" thing going on?
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> yes, not automatic but as you expand past your base of operations you can go further and further. if you drown it warps you back to base but I think you lose your stuff? I dunno I never played it
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> one thought I had, I wondered if maybe a player might want to intentionally return to base. we could give them a command ?-warp or something
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> not giving them that option is on theme
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> hmmm true yeah. Map ideas: mining area; some kind of abandoned treatment center for people with the condition you develop, Dead forest, Poisoned lake, A beast cave that attracts you by making a player appear and disappear in the dark like that hollow knight boss as you get closer. Then you show up the big :eyes: appear. Maybe it could be in the mine?
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> apparently zedit2 overwrites your current board if you import a board. cool cool
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> On the google sheet can people put solid lines to mark off boards that are adjacent but not passable?
07/14/2021 <Mr.L> Yeah I was playing Subnautica when I did that. I think most are
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> On my boards I might make general shapes but let others add detail
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> satelite is fixed. I'm still not sure how the purple loop gets broke but I'm also thinking the purple loop is gonna get an overhaul. Made the inbox show the menu on the first time through. Added the mission description to mission central. Added the suit and Lab 13 inside the crawling chaos. Fixed the softlock potentials in memories of drowning and vendor fall. I also chopped down the verbiage on layer 1. updates are in the GDrive
07/14/2021 <Mr.L> Mr.C i am stealing some lights from layer four for this teleporter shenanigan. mostly i'm worried we'll lose some visual effects but i'd also like to not worry about light
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> Here's 2-3, the factory and location of the explosives pack
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> Attachment file type: unknown 2-3-bomb.brd 8.23 KB
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> needs some details but the board is there. I'm trying not to get bogged down on the small details atm
07/14/2021 <Mr.C> solid, looking forward to it
07/14/2021 <Mr.L> no, youtube, this video of this horror ascii game is not in fact made for kids

07/14/2021 <Mr.C> AHAHAHAHAHA it's so bonkers
07/14/2021 <Mr.L> ikr, i am very happy with it. i think i am going to tackle the actual board with the lab tomorrow. does anyone care if i chrono trigger allusion with the lab number on this one
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> I wouldn't even recognize it so no. Question: For one of my boards I am using player clones as a creepy visual, but that messes up the torch timing, can I do this without totally borking the engine?
07/14/2021 <Mr.L> maybe if you add some ammo when you do it?
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> So if there's a player clone, give ammo that cycle?
07/14/2021 <Mr.L> i think that would be the way
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> if two objects give ammo in the same cycle does it increase by two?
07/14/2021 <Mr.L> it should yeah
07/14/2021 <Mr.B> oh good, this should work then hooray
07/15/2021 <Mr.B> you'll have to give me your opinion on whether you think this is even an effective scare. gonna try to have a prototype tomorrow evening
07/15/2021 <Mr.L> aight
07/16/2021 <Mr.C> I have bomb board incorporated into my branch
07/16/2021 <Mr.L> waaaaaaaait uh i'm confused...oh Mr.B's bomb board brilliant
07/16/2021 <Mr.B> @Mr.C are you full time in zedit these days?
07/16/2021 <Mr.C> I am definitely 50 50. kevedit is hella flaky rn but the tool is too powerful: being able to paste underneath, being able to immediately and precisely create irregular selections, zedit2's block mod tools are just weak so I draw the main landscape in zedit2, and the fringe bits and decorations I can make in kevedit in seconds with pattern repetitions and corner cleanups
07/16/2021 <Mr.B> Yeah I've been drawing big landscape in zedit bc atlas but then switching to ke
07/16/2021 <Mr.C> yes, that is the best way
07/16/2021 <Mr.B> Oh btw if you add details to my bomb board don't load up the stats, I need stats for all the stars Not sure about the exact number. I figured we'd want to add a sign at least like other boards, and some plants in dead end spaces
07/16/2021 <Mr.C> I figured as much. only thing I did was texture some of the surroundings
07/16/2021 <Mr.L> does the giant corporation have a name? when we know, we'll know which corporation to name the sanitarium after
07/16/2021 <Mr.C> aite
07/16/2021 <Mr.L> so, question. i have one friend who sort of knows what we're doing. i'd like to let christopher know. neither of them would tell, and christopher might actually be of testing assistance.
07/16/2021 <Mr.C> LBC is legion
07/16/2021 <Mr.L> i do have one request. this is going to sound really petty but can we step back from the claim that this is an expansion on the neat zzt board?
07/16/2021 <Mr.C> oh! Yes of course
07/16/2021 <Mr.L> i'm OK with flat out hiding the identity, but i'd rather not tell an outright lie
07/16/2021 <Mr.C> It is already inferred, there's no reason to pitch it explicitly
07/16/2021 <Mr.L> i appreciate it. i realize that probably sounds horrendously scrupulous
07/16/2021 <Mr.C> this is supposed to be fun
07/16/2021 <Mr.L> hehe yeah
07/16/2021 <Mr.C> so whatever keeps it fun for all is good. Also I envision a future where we can postmortem LBC the character and be like "one of the stipulations was no outright lies"
07/16/2021 <Mr.L> lol yay. do we think this corp would call its mental institution a "sanitarium"? i am implying the person who was on void lab had to be taken there for treatment
07/16/2021 <Mr.C> probably would be more allegria about it. "balance center"
07/16/2021 <Mr.L> YES
07/16/2021 <Mr.C> recovery center
07/16/2021 <Mr.L> that's a good one. wait wait what if we call it "the Light and Balance Center"? that might be too on the nose?
07/16/2021 <Mr.C> I hear where you're coming from, it's too much color
07/16/2021 <Mr.L> yeah i'm going to go with recovery i think
07/16/2021 <Mr.C> recovery center is for sure the most unambiguous. There is an obsession with giving lip service to "work-life balance" that the corporate world has been really grinding away at the last few years that makes "balance center" attractive
07/16/2021 <Mr.C> maybe "personal center", "taking a personal day" being the most polite way to say "I am exactly one more soul-numbing shift away from becoming a nut farmer" "personal day center" is blackly humorous, inferring that losing one's mind is just an endless series of personal days
07/16/2021 <Mr.L> hehe. went with balance center for right now but open to the others. might be worth revisiting once we know the corp name
07/16/2021 <Mr.C> personal day room for padded cell is a pretty marvelous euphemism
07/16/2021 <Mr.L> there's a reference to wittgenstein and voids in this journal, which is kinda cheating because i only know about it because of logicomix, which i haven't even properly read. ok, i left the coral boards in the phoebus folder; one's a replacement, 3 are new
07/16/2021 <Mr.C> rad
07/16/2021 <Mr.L> i did not modify the code regarding chemometer battery coding, but i think it's more or less functional
07/16/2021 <Mr.C> yes, we can revisit the chemometers once we have a solid count of them and decide from there
07/16/2021 <Mr.L> the only main note is that the grey-on-grey passage in 1,7 needs to go back to 1,7. all the other passages/board links would go where you would expect based on our established patterns
07/17/2021 <Mr.C> is we feebers
07/17/2021 <Mr.L> probably not till at least sunday night for me, but if there is testing to do then I WILL
07/17/2021 <Mr.C> 100% of the puzzles associated with the purple loop have problems. I think I'm going to remove the purple loop puzzles leave the wires in place
07/17/2021 <Mr.B> Oh dear
07/17/2021 <Mr.C> I hesitate to lose that much content, but they need a lot of rework to be viable. though I just figured out how to fix the slider puzzle.... well okay let me try something with the slider puzzle
07/17/2021 <Mr.B> What was wrong with it?
07/17/2021 <Mr.C> It doesn't feel fair. You can clear the path and by the time you reach the button the path could be blocked again, so in theory with terrible luck you could be stuck there for a long time and have no idea what was wrong
07/17/2021 <Mr.B> That's true.
07/17/2021 <Mr.C> however! I just figured out something wonderful! I can make the puzzle much more fair and it is essentially the same puzzle, and it's so intuitive you won't need the smaller puzzle as a primer. it won't really work as a smaller puzzle I don't think - but since they're all the same code if we do the one we might as well try the other too
07/17/2021 <Mr.C> it works. it's way better now and fair even in the dark
07/17/2021 <Mr.B> Gonna try to carve out a few hours this weekend for febis
07/17/2021 <Mr.C> it works great in small scale too. I'm super pleased with it now. I also fixed the bug in the loop code. I made the loop a bit more puzzle-y than just connecting the two ends
07/17/2021 <Mr.C> omg wittgenstein const
07/17/2021 <Mr.C> also Mr.L these torches sitting about are for testing right ? they can be removed
07/17/2021 <Mr.L> yes, glad you appreciated that
07/17/2021 <Mr.C> for maximum sparkles, is there a gameplay reason not to replace some of the dgrey lines with dgrey statless dupes? char 250 vs 249
07/17/2021 <Mr.C> okay I have put up 717a, it has corals and factory. it has fixes: satellite, purple loop puzzles, inbox (on both story screen and mission central) crystal hint now says explosive, drowning memories are one use only, it has a vending machine selling a suit, and a simplified layer one message,
07/17/2021 <Mr.C> Attachment file type: unknown PHOE717a.zzt 339.09 KB
07/17/2021 <Mr.C> on febis there's one major blocker, which is the puzzle in 5,1 - I can't tell if it's good or not
07/17/2021 <Mr.L> did you find the 'join the void with the bomb' puzzle too much of a hassle
07/17/2021 <Mr.C> I've returned it so it at least won't accidentally solve itself

07/17/2021 <Mr.C> if we wanna fill out the minimap these are the remaining boards to do so. I'm redoing the intro board. I've chopped the three offending lines but we'll need something to fill them with. Here are my placeholders:
07/17/2021 <Mr.C> Phoebus Project
07/17/2021 <Mr.C> Created in summer of 2021
07/17/2021 <Mr.C> (Scripting and programming by LBC)
07/17/2021 <Mr.C> (Environmental design by LBC)
07/17/2021 <Mr.C> (testing by ????)
07/17/2021 <Mr.C> Created for ZZT by LBC
07/17/2021 <Mr.L> hmmm. gtg to bed but i will be responding periodically to things throughout the weekend
07/17/2021 <Mr.B> Yes let's fill the minimap. I have ideas. I'd like to add a lake at the top, A water crossing to a lab on an island could be grounds for another item Zelda style
07/17/2021 <Mr.B> Ok here is the spooky player clone board. It needs an aesthetic makeover but it can be incorporated now!
07/17/2021 <Mr.B> Attachment file type: unknown 1_3.brd 4.78 KB
07/17/2021 <Mr.B> right now there is a passage at the end but I think I will just use a board edge. oh I just got an idea...
07/17/2021 <Mr.C> Board is so intimidating, I don't think it needs to change
07/17/2021 <Mr.C> it's sort of perfect, the brutalist 04h layout is very striking. where does the passage at the bottom left go?
07/17/2021 <Mr.B> It's a surprise. gonna try to hammer it out tonight. 04h? oh is this dark red solid
07/18/2021 <Mr.B> ok this is from an older fork but the only changes are 1' 3 and the board it's connected to
07/18/2021 <Mr.B> Attachment file type: unknown PHOE717z.zzt 333.52 KB
07/18/2021 <Mr.B> lmk if the cinematics is working for you. Oh I do have an idea that I think will make it better but I'll wait till you try it
07/18/2021 <Mr.B> I'm clocking out for the night but I forgot to add something that makes that area inaccessible a second time
07/18/2021 <Mr.C> yes
07/18/2021 <Mr.B> Gonna claim 1' 1. I've got an idea
07/18/2021 <Mr.B> My idea was formed in the middle of the night in semi-consciousness and I'm not sure about it now. It's a Mr.B puzzle for sure and I like the concept but it might require too expert zzt knowledge
07/18/2021 <Mr.C> gotta try it
07/18/2021 <Mr.B> I'll make it and you can give your thoughts. But i'd be happy saving it for a different game. I just exploiting zzt quirks for puzzles
07/18/2021 <Mr.C> don't mind him, he just exploiting zzt quirks for puzzles
07/18/2021 <Mr.B> Oops forgot a word. "LOVE"
07/18/2021 <Mr.C> I have your stuff wired up imma test it a bit
07/18/2021 <Mr.B> Excellent. Best to play it during the day. Too spooky otherwise
07/18/2021 <Mr.C> factory real good. I added two gems to give the player a bit more time for the gaps if they came in low on power
07/18/2021 <Mr.B> Good yeah the other boards will need gems too. What do you think of the fact that you have to bomb yourself to get out? Oh I'm not sure if the factory is repeatable. At any rate we should make sure that if people run out of torches partway through they aren't sol. Or like, run out right when they reach the end but before they grab the backpack
07/18/2021 <Mr.C> i believe it is repeatable, Because you can walk even if you're not pushed thru
07/18/2021 <Mr.B> Ah yes ok
07/18/2021 <Mr.C> that being said, I have an idea: return that object next to the gate to its main loop after pushing, and then you get the experience every time. my idea is, as it's shoving you around
07/18/2021 <Mr.B> Yeah that's a good idea
07/18/2021 <Mr.C> one of those views that you see split second should have something spooky
07/18/2021 <Mr.B> Oh yes I agree. "mene mene tekel upharsin" on the wall? Some people like that other place? Or like, nasty bloody stuff? This was a joke but short ominous graffiti could be cool
07/18/2021 <Mr.C> there's not enough time to register movement. I made everything black foreground with red background in one view
07/18/2021 <Mr.B> You could probably read LEAVE followed by NOW
07/18/2021 <Mr.C> at 0.22s each? potentially
07/18/2021 <Mr.B> Would have to test
07/18/2021 <Mr.C> Shelving it for now. Nothing I tried makes the scene more impactful
07/18/2021 <Mr.B> K. Took me a while to get into the project but I'm glad I finally did.
07/18/2021 <Mr.C> same and same
07/18/2021 <Mr.B> Haven't been part of a zzt collaboration like this where it's not a random potpourri. Sorry my janky code probably made it a bit harder to experiment
07/18/2021 <Mr.C> not at all! Just made extra sure it is not repeatable because the blinkwall... oh can just make a nother boulder
07/18/2021 <Mr.C> ahh. just went through 1,3, aaaaaaahhhh fkkk it's so good.
07/18/2021 <Mr.B> I was thinking it could be cool to have the creature pull you to it one or two tiles. Also if needed I can make that board a lot more efficient.
07/18/2021 <Mr.C> we just started looking at it today. 18a is up on the drive, it includes everything we've got so far
07/18/2021 <Mr.B> Awesome. btw how did lbc's debut in the neat jam go? I didn't follow that at all
07/18/2021 <Mr.C> jwwells, asie and dos all helped answer question. wells tested "aboard the ss broca" and based on his comments "apollo station" was developed and released. so far judges comments havent surfaced
07/18/2021 <Mr.B> The reaction when the truth comes out will be interesting . I hope people aren't disappointed that LBC isn't actually an ambitious new ZZTer. But I mean they get fun games out of it so can't complain too much
07/18/2021 <Mr.C> i think itll be obvious its a seasoned creator
07/18/2021 <Mr.B> Lol especially with the magic of successfully destroying and reviving the player which no one thought was even possible
07/18/2021 <Mr.C> that effect is perfect by the way
07/18/2021 <Mr.B> is that in 18a? I still need to try it myself
07/18/2021 <Mr.C> yes. okay so, here is a thing. is it possible to use player clones to guarantee dark room redraw errors
07/18/2021 <Mr.L> Excellent question no idea
07/18/2021 <Mr.C> I think you can at best 50/50 it. we're uniquely positioned, we know exactly the cycle when a player's torch has activated
07/18/2021 <Mr.C> Good question. I didn't know about that until I was testing my board, About the redraw error
07/18/2021 <Mr.B> We shouldn't do this, but it would be funny if we put in an invisible maze. like classic new zzter thing to do
07/18/2021 <Mr.L> Lololol
07/18/2021 <Mr.B> make the immediate boards surrounding the ship just really terrible.
07/18/2021 <Mr.B> Attachment file type: unknown PHOE718b.zzt 364.88 KB
07/19/2021 <Mr.L> aight
07/19/2021 <Mr.B> This is the one I said I wasn't sure about, But I have tried to make it intuitive
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> lookin'
07/19/2021 <Mr.B> I'll be up for a bit longer. gettin ready for sleep
07/19/2021 <Mr.L> just did it. i think for a new zzter maybe a little unintuitive. vets will probably grok it
07/19/2021 <Mr.B> We'll see what Mr.C says but I'm leaning towards dropping it. I think the central conceit draws too much attention to the mechanics of zzt and it kind of takes you out of the game, in addition to the unfairness to newcomers. But proof of concept works
07/19/2021 <Mr.L> yes, it's a good proof of concept and deserves to be used
07/19/2021 <Mr.B> We'll see. Would fit in there tho
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> I tried to put myself in the mind of a new player. I think all it needs in order to be accessible is an additional clue to visit offscreen. Veteran players are going to find a 1-tile gap in the wall much more suspicious than the neophyte
07/19/2021 <Mr.B> Yeah. Do you think the conceit is distracting tho? Another idea for this board is to do a kind of dancing pressure pad thing. You have to kind of frantically go from pad to pad while they are activated. They would be spread a bit apart.. I guess kind of similar to the slider thing like one activates after another, But if you don't get to the next one in time you start over
07/19/2021 <Mr.L> hmm
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> I don't think so no. the context is set up decently, you're just messing with and interacting with equipment that's been left out here on the Sphere of Infinite Fun
07/19/2021 <Mr.B> I'm wondering if there's a way to train the player to see the time pause between boards and make lore out of it
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> I like the concept of that
07/19/2021 <Mr.B> Oh a snaking path That goes between boards
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> yes excellent
07/19/2021 <Mr.B> So something starts happening, they leave, come back, and see, hey, this is still happening. Forced to witness it
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> that would be very effective
07/19/2021 <Mr.B> There's some creative opportunity there too. Hmm
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> 1,4 2,4 and 3,4 are all pre-bomb and still available. that presumes a path that snakes along the x axis, which may not be as visually demonstrative as one that snakes along the y axis
07/19/2021 <Mr.B> I have claimed some boards that I haven't done anything with yet that might work
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> ok - also there's lots of spare space on 1,5 2,5 and 3,5, I can shift things over and make room for a snaking path along the west side
07/19/2021 <Mr.B> I claimed 3' 3 but haven't started, so we could do 3' 3 and 4' 3
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> o yah that works
07/19/2021 <Mr.B> I don't really have a plan for 3' 3. My only idea was that when you blow yourself out of the factory from that side you can reach an otherwise inaccessible part of 3' 3, maybe something that has interesting lore. something you can kind of see from the other side but not a good look
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> i can see that. Okay, where should we compile a list of potential diary entries?
07/19/2021 <Mr.B> a gdoc in the folder? or a sheet. then after we get what we like we can save as .txts
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> yes, my main concern is getting the diary entry to unlock at the right time. some of them it will be easy - all the trapping deaths, and any permanent enhancement like the chemometer or suit. An entry on the sensor towers will be easy too, just unlock it after the first time you travel back to mission central
07/19/2021 <Mr.B> which is harder? getting the timing of the aphasia right?
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> any other strange event we might want to note will require some kind of flag so that the diary entry can be added on return, but they may not return right away. and the more such events we have the closer we get to 10 flag limit... currently we have the following flags (I'm also adding this to the doc)
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> (1) st0-st3, main status flag
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> (2) kra-ch3, main plot flag
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> (3) bomb
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> (4) line0-line2, lab 14 connection flag
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> (5) suit [possibly]
07/19/2021 <Mr.B> was just gonna ask. I was planning on adding a pick flag too but that's not indispensable
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> we can piggyback simple flags like bomb, suit, pick - we check for them so rarely, especially bomb
07/19/2021 <Mr.B> piggyback?
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> instead of #if bomb x, #if bomb if bombpick x; then if you have the bomb when you get the pick, clear bomb and set bombpick. if you have the pick when you get the bomb, vice versa. everywhere you'd check for one flag check for both, and you save a flag
07/19/2021 <Mr.B> oh whoa never thought of that!
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> https://museumofzzt.com/file/z/zzttool.zip?file=ZZTTRICK.DOC the O.G. source, ORBSWORD! that is also the source of the double flags misinfo
07/19/2021 <Mr.B> oh wow! lol it seems like every time someone wonders where something came from Janson is behind it, I'm really impressed that she was figuring this stuff out in 93
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> without ZZT TOOLS, we have a very different zzt landscape
07/19/2021 <Mr.B> did not know this about pushers and now I feel compelled to make a puzzle out of it. though some of these tricks I know OF them, like barjesse's flag shenanigans with CONSCIOUSNESS but they seem so tedious that I refuse to do it, but then I go and invent my own tedium
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> yah, you hit diminishing returns pretty fast, but piggybacking a couple things that get checked rarely is well worth it

07/19/2021 <Mr.C> 19a is up. changes:
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> * suit and bomb now piggyback as bombsuit, and pick and the red keycard (redkc) now piggyback as 'pickred'. I think I got everywhere they're used.
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> * pick isn't used yet
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> * redkc is only used as entrance to the pipe of souls
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> * the bombs are used in a few places
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> * to get out of the factory
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> * to get past the skinny areas next to the downed satellite
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> * (at least for now) used to separate the crystal shard from its parent crystal.
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> * The suit is used to access lab 13 in the crawling chaos.
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> * If you know of a usage I missed lemme know.
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> * redid the bomb destruction sequence for lab A (the one by the satellite) so that it no longer destroys the Chemometer.
07/19/2021 <Mr.B> In my latest zzt dream brainstorming it occurred to me that a spinning gun shooting in parallel with the direction of the snaking path that the player has to navigate back and forth would teach them that pause mechanic. No dreams about lore tho. Actually the bullets might be a little subtle bc it doesn't pause. Hmm
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> big feeb

07/19/2021 <Mr.B> amazing stuff. it's nuts when you can't actually tell where a board begins/ends
07/19/2021 <Mr.L> we should put barrier around the other void (worldbuilding consistency, the only way you're supposed to get across the void is by joining it, (or having a bridge i guess))
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> yes, agreed
07/19/2021 <Mr.L> holy crap this is giant
07/19/2021 <Mr.B> IT'S SO BIG. what void are you talking about?
07/19/2021 <Mr.L> near the void lab. it stretches into the prairie but there's no divider
07/19/2021 <Mr.B> is that the sw corner?
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> yah there are some placeholder dots
07/19/2021 <Mr.L> we might have a goty contender on our hands. a vanilla GOTY contender for sure
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> yessss this is a pretty great project. we set everything up, created a character, created a game that character created, and then it will be done and we'll just ... send it out there. and then its anyone's guess
07/19/2021 <Mr.B> two games
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> ^ true
07/19/2021 <Mr.B> fun to do interesting things
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> and like, I'm not super partial to one scenario over another. If we're discovered immediately that would be hilarious. If it just sort of uncritically enters the ZZT canon that would be interesting too. Obviously the mystery hunt would be baller
07/19/2021 <Mr.B> are you imagining lbc being present and answering questions and stuff or disappearing as soon as it drops
07/19/2021 <Mr.C> so im trying to remember... cyrus, the persian conqueror emperor guy. his great grandfather Teispes. One of the conditions of his rule was that he would respond to each courtier a maximum of once a week. So, I'm thinking LBC might respond, but not at length and not in real-time. I guess it depends on the response to the initial work
07/19/2021 <Mr.B> Even when I'm in the throes of a zzt project what drives me is the need to finish it and move on. It's weird. Like "oh man I really need to get this off my plate." Maybe not what gets me started, but I inevitably feel it partway through. Being a creator is full of curious emotional states
07/20/2021 <Mr.C> yah I'm calling it, I got basically nowhere. I put in a mechanism to stop repeated trips to wiggly hand
07/20/2021 <Mr.L> yay
07/20/2021 <Mr.C> and renamed the shielded lab to lab 19 so we don't have two 14s. 720a is in the drive
07/20/2021 <Mr.B> Sweet yeah I just copy pasted
07/20/2021 <Mr.C> we ferbabn ?
07/20/2021 <Mr.B> I've got a thing but I will after
07/20/2021 <Mr.B>

07/20/2021 <Mr.L> i likely will yeah
07/20/2021 <Mr.C> 720b is in the drive, If we end up scrapping the shielded lab we need to use that chemometer reading somewhere because I like what I did with it
07/20/2021 <Mr.B> There will be a lab there even if the puzzle changes
07/20/2021 <Mr.C> sweet that puts us at 6 labs. There's three ways to go about this
07/20/2021 <Mr.C> Way the first: Rather than change everything that uses ch2 ch3 etc, start with no readings as ch0 but sequence as chx chy chz ch1 ch2 ch3, so there will be very minor degradation through the majority of the game and it will only really start to go downhill at the end
07/20/2021 <Mr.C> way the second: add a second sequence flag that tracks the number of labs visited and ch0 ch1 ch2 ch3 become "chapters" that we tick along via some other guide, either every 2nd lab, or by some undetermined way. we're only at 5 flags now so that's probably quite viable
07/20/2021 <Mr.C> way the third: change pretty much every single object in the game and use ch0 ch1 ch2 ch3 ch4 ch5 ch6 as the sequence
07/20/2021 <Mr.B> I think a fast and hard decline will be a dramatic finish, but I think we need SOME event earlier on to keep the player gripped. something to keep the tension at the end of the first act, so to speak; a discovery that raises a question, perhaps encountering a roving madman around the ship after one of the readings something like that. maybe a very early warning sign, like he gets a message from his bot that makes no sense and he's wondering what's gotten into her (not realizing that it's HIM) Six chemometers? so things would start to really decline after 4? We need an FMV hallucination after 3. that would do it. after three, the player is warped to a board that LOOKS like the ship, but then it turns into a nightmare that is ominous and symbolically presages the decline... The player is warped to the "ship." they go right through the teleporter, but it's actually an object that when touched teleports the player to a board that is all black, but the ship turns into a bunch of morphing letters in the shape of the ship. the letters randomly start to disappear until you are left alone in the void, then you snap back to the real ship
07/20/2021 <Mr.C> if we go with option 2, then ch0 is no degradation and would last through the first chemometric reading, ch1 is 30% degradation and would last through the 3rd chemometric reading, ch2 is 60% degradation and would last through the 5th chemometric reading and ch3 is 90% degradation and would happen after all chemometers have been read
07/20/2021 <Mr.B> is option 1 little to no degredation until the last three?
07/20/2021 <Mr.C> yes, option 1 represents no degradation until 4 chemometers have been read
07/20/2021 <Mr.B> I think I might prefer option 1 with a scene like I described after three
07/20/2021 <Mr.C> I have an idea of how to pull that off. every board with a lab has a second set of exits
07/20/2021 <Mr.C> actually scratch that, the ready for duty board
07/20/2021 <Mr.B> I'm working on a prototype for the scene if that's ok
07/20/2021 <Mr.C> can send you to the alternate sequence. yes please
07/20/2021 <Mr.B> here try that out
07/20/2021 <Mr.B> Attachment file type: unknown PHOE720d.zzt 400.94 KB
07/20/2021 <Mr.B> I tried a few different things surrounding the ship but none improved on black space. feel freebis to add to it/make changes
07/20/2021 <Mr.C> is it linked up to anything yet?
07/20/2021 <Mr.B> to get there? no
07/20/2021 <Mr.C> ok good, just want to make sure I don't mess it up if I hook it up to something
07/20/2021 <Mr.B> but it'll take you back to the true ship board
07/20/2021 <Mr.C> filename says 720d but title screen says it was forked from 720a, just confirming it was actually forked from b?
07/20/2021 <Mr.B> oh shoot I'm sorry yes
07/20/2021 <Mr.C> no prob :heart:
07/20/2021 <Mr.B> forked from the last one you uploaded
07/20/2021 <Mr.C> perf
07/21/2021 <Mr.B> maybe there could be an effective visual with "lightning" type strikes that seem to hit the ship with each wave of disappearing letters. let me give it a quick try... might be too flashy. what say you? not sure lightning is the right thing, and it could be too flashy, but the flash adds a nice extra OOMPH
07/21/2021 <Mr.B> Attachment file type: unknown PHOE720e.zzt 401.74 KB
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> I like it
07/21/2021 <Mr.B> Oh and I didn't do a flash for each hit yet for testing
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> yes, I think it's right. I don't remember how I know this (which is very concerning actually) but your vision really does flash white when you get a hard knock to the head
07/21/2021 <Mr.L> Computer just froze. What I get for playing games instead of doing Phoebus stuff
07/21/2021 <Mr.B> oh man thas wat u get
07/21/2021 <Mr.B> gonna call it a night there. I keep adding theatrics instead of worldbuilding XD
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> needed theatrics
07/21/2021 <Mr.B> really excited to play it all together, so many great spooky moments
07/21/2021 <Mr.L> yay
07/21/2021 <Mr.B> Mr.L have you played 1'3 yet
07/21/2021 <Mr.L> no
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> yeah getting another data point on 1'3 would be nice
07/21/2021 <Mr.B> putting 720f in the drive
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> yeah plop a torch onto 1,3 and just start at 1,3 and give it a go, maybe give yourself a couple gems for time
07/21/2021 <Mr.B> wait I'll put in that /i and upload 720g
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> oh I already added it to 721a
07/21/2021 <Mr.B> oh haha we good then. I'm gonna call it there tonight
07/21/2021 <Mr.L> should i re-dl?
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> no need, it's not hooked up to anything yet
07/21/2021 <Mr.L> oh ok
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> feeb is a strong vibe and we're to single digit days now
07/21/2021 <Mr.B> my woid
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> so I appeciate yall coming together on it
07/21/2021 <Mr.B> it's been fun. losing sleep for the feeb
07/21/2021 <Mr.L> lol, yay indeed. ok should i try to recruit a beta tester? i will warn him it is Top Secret before taking yes
07/21/2021 <Mr.B> I guess we ARE pretty close aren't we
07/21/2021 <Mr.L> yes
07/21/2021 <Mr.B> What has been satisfying for me is to see some blending of people's diff styles
07/21/2021 <Mr.L> the satisfying part for me is going to be later on with people playing a combination social deduction and old testament redactionary criticism game, i hope people don't ruin that first part by outright claiming they're not involved. i fully intend to dodge all such questions, mostly by pretending they haven't been asked
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> Listen, none of us are LBC. LBC is a character we created, and if someone asks me "is LBC a character you created" I will answer in the affirmative, but like I said I have no idea what post release looks like
07/21/2021 <Mr.B> we should write down our best predictions and see who gets it right
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> I am currently making a 21b I am going through every object in the game and making sure any objects that depended on ch0 ch1 ch2 ch3 sequence now accommodate the new ch0 chx chy chz ch1 ch2 ch3 sequence. luckily I named every object in the game so I can ctrl+s my way through the stats and know i'm not missing anything
07/21/2021 <Mr.B> nice. I did not name a lot of my objects fyi
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> i know, I went back through and named everything in factory. I haven't done all of 1,3 yet and I didn't even start on shielded lab because it was up in the air
07/21/2021 <Mr.B> >_< sorry bout that
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> is all good. I am so pleased with everything we have done.
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> okay so I've been through pretty much everything. 721b is up. There are some items where I could have spread things out more but the basic breakdown sequence is:
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> none > krz > kra > krb > ch0 > chx > chy
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> no degradation
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> chz: 15% degradation, no hallucination
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> ch1: 30% degradation, no hallucination
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> ch2: 60% degradation, some hallucination
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> ch3: 90% degradation, all available hallucination
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> That's broadly followed, but I think there is one board where a hallucination appears at ch1 and there are some objects that degrade more rapidly. There are still some things I need to do still:
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> (1) change job description to say 6 readings instead of 3 on both the ship screen and mission central
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> (2) the diary gameplay loop:
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> * "You appear to have experienced a significant work incident. Would you like to record your thoughts?"
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> * If you say yes, a recess appears in the ship and it instructs you to back up and touch your PartnerPort to the recording device
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> * You experience unpleasant buzzing, then it says "Thoughts recorded. Would you like to read a summary?"
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> * After the first recording, the summaries are available via a terminal next to the alcove.
07/21/2021 <Mr.L> fyi i will be playing this tonight
07/21/2021 <Mr.B> That diary system sounds great. I might not be phobing tonight. need to try to sleep
07/21/2021 <Mr.L> ok, please answer yes or no and to be clear idc either way: should i try to recruit mr christopher as beta? no details have been shared at this time. i don't want to spill any beans without unanimity on this
07/21/2021 <Mr.B> Let's wait a bit
07/21/2021 <Mr.L> aight
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> I'm a yes, but I'm super close to the project now so there's a lot I can't see
07/21/2021 <Mr.L> ok. well, since we're not unanimous, i can certainly wait. he does know it would involve beta testing and secrecy, but (besides that he would almost certainly know it's a game) i've revealed no actual details as to why so secret. we can always revisit it when we're closer to time.
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> yes. mission central is at 14.5k and it will take another few K to finish the diary display code. We'll be full but not really cutting it close
07/21/2021 <Mr.L> did several westside things. i think i need to see creepy clones with properly implemented torches n and s because as-is it's not clear if the cycles are misaligning because of the clones or because of coming in from a weird board where they were already misaligned--i feel like the direct test had a much better result so i'm thinking/hoping the latter
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> i hadn't thought of that. yes 100% that could have thrown everything off. I'm glad you went back and did a direct test, it works a treat
07/21/2021 <Mr.L> oh yeah i did that first. i have 2 other notes and i realize the first one is another 'comfort/morality' request which i swear i'm not being that guy on purpose
07/21/2021 <Mr.L> * could we say android instead of sexbot?
07/21/2021 <Mr.L> * need a diff name for dr altman (maybe, it has weird connotations because of a known trumper, and i don't just mean trump voter)
07/21/2021 <Mr.L> for the record i realize android still has most of the same icky implications, just fewer icky teleological implications
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> second one, call him Dr Maimon, like mainman
07/21/2021 <Mr.L> lol
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> first one I will accept a very hard veto from the team and downgrade to "robot girlfriend", however I'd like to make my case: I genuinely believe the extreme attenuation of human mating habits is an important story element and 'sexbot' is exactly the right word to use here, but it's just a word and this is for funsies so I'm not going to be in a twist over it
07/21/2021 <Mr.L> [extreme attenuation of human mating habits is an important story element] i'll be watching for this, i had not caught on to it
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> it speaks to the character of the "protagonist" and his situation. Life's genuine fulfillments have all been commodified: career, food, home, love, family, even order and stability. He rejects them all because they are spread so thin he can't differentiate between presence and absence. Finally when his world is repossessed, we are isolated from his reaction due to both the Repos' dampening field and his Broca's area injury. so it's imo important that Gloria is explicitly a commodified sex object, taking on the appearance to the viewer of pursuing a genuine emotional connection but seen by the protagonist for what it really is: another layer of trash dopamine engineered to "drive user engagement"
07/21/2021 <Mr.L> ok. well i won't push you to discuss it further tonight
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> like i said if it goes it goes, and it will still be a great game
07/21/2021 <Mr.L> i'll have to think about why that distinction is important to me since i have varying thoughts and motivations coming out of that discomfort because that may modify how absolute i personally am willing to be about it. i'm sorry that wasn't fair
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> No, it's okay. Your feelings are valid here
07/21/2021 <Mr.L> ok. for ref: i feel like i've been cool about socialist messaging and a game that's a lot more horror/depression than i guess i thought we were going to make [notably my own vision was never particularly articulated or coherent] but also i maybe should've picked a day i didn't start work 30 minutes early on the tail end of what is apparently a midweek cold to start this conversation
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> I understand your discomfort, I'd wanted to take a moment to consider it because it wasn't a decision made lightly. we can talk more later for sure
07/21/2021 <Mr.L> that's good. your feelings are valid too btw
07/21/2021 <Mr.C> :heart: I will revisit that section and see whether I can achieve the same aim in a slightly different way and keep the impact
07/21/2021 <Mr.L> ok. for the record, maybe i wasn't reading holistically enough, but i saw no other dialog that made me squeamish. i am going to bed now but just to say ... thanks for being so understanding about all this, i know sometimes i'm a lot
07/22/2021 <Mr.C> I put in a barebones of all the diary entries. The mission central screen is now suuuper slow in zeta and I'm not sure why. I took pains to make sure that I wasn't cranking the cycles too hard. I had to reset my display customization so I think it has something to do with aero, don't know for sure though. As always, lancer's proposed fix (in this case putting :thud as the first line) works
07/22/2021 <Mr.B> what'd i miss
07/22/2021 <Mr.C> The president of the cartel made a completely reasonable request (I brought a robot to work and it's raised some eyebrows)
07/22/2021 <Mr.B> lol
07/22/2021 <Mr.C> 722a: I've rewritten the Gloria sequence. I think there are enough cues from the conversation to still give the player the necessary context. The introduction is our window into how the protagonist understands his parapsychological relationship with technology. Instead of giving that parapsychological relationship an explicit label (puns!) now he refers to it simply as "Gloria", which in the context of the other ship relationships ("Your fridge, your inbox") can be equally functional and dismissive. I'm not convinced that it does the job but I think I've avoided bowdlerizing the text
07/22/2021 <Mr.L> upi
07/22/2021 <Mr.L> you're amazing
07/22/2021 <Mr.C> 722c is up. also all new diary entries are up. the only one I don't have an entry for is the pick. there are 42 diary entries (!) an auspicious number for a ZZT game
07/22/2021 <Mr.B> Whoa dang. Feeling beat tonight but I'm gonna try to hammer out a board or two
07/22/2021 <Mr.L> what Mr.B said
07/23/2021 <Mr.B> Worked on some map ideas but I can't keep my eyes open. Going to bed early
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> 722c is latest?
07/23/2021 <Mr.B> Afaik
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> cool.
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> I WILL FEEB TOMORROW NIGHT
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> I WILL PLAY IT
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> AND POSSIBLY EDIT SOME BOARDS
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> that was meant to be a forceful declaration not shouting at anyone. is touching the !! in the wall supposed to take 20 gems away? i am worried that if a player didn't catch on quick they could lose massive amounts of score to these things, and since score is how you upgrade torch time... new circuitry puzzle is excellent
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> oh the !! are not making it into the final game in their current state. I was trying a bunch of things... cheat the gems back
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> oh i just had a save from not too far earlier
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> coo
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> truth be told i only noticed because i thought one of the boards had somehow sent me bakc to base with 20 gems left
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> it might have. That board was an experiment that didn't really go anywhere
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> oh no sorry i meant my main engine
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> are the diary entries loading?
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> i'm still on my first run out the ship, should they be loading somewhere else?
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> no your gigpad will reach out to you. as long as you have all the 000 001 002 files in your directory you should be fine
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> i did not
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> copy them in!
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> oh yeah i have now
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> aight. I haven't tested every permutation of them yet, I may have typoed them it was quite late, but they did fine with a spot test
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> i checked a few of them. VERY interesting
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> im thinking to put a sensor tower in the coral somewhere
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> not a bad move, but it's not a big enough area that it feels super-necessary. i think we should do that if there's a spot left for it
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> yes. tower L is unslotted and ideally should align with the lowest part of the map
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> there we go
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> uh oh, something sucky happened to kevedit. now every time I save feeb as a new file it crashes on board 8
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh o no. do we need to revert
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> no. well let me confirm absolutely... no we don't
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> oh ok
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> kevedit is just crashing
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> oh ok
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> I checked all my old feebs back to 614 and they all crash, so this is kevedit not corruptions
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> that's ........ not great, but sort of expected
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> also zedit2 handles the file just fine
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> o good. i may have cut levels from earlier games because it was 2 am and i was beta testing while editing a sav file to fix bugs to avoid having to do more testing and got exhausted into deciding it wasn't worth it. i think i was also convinced the file had gotten corrupted by the new levels. i mean it was definitely the right call anyway but man what a night
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> now that i've reproed this a few times, it looks like its an old bug come back to rear its ugly head. kevedit crashes when you load too many boards in quick succession. classic KE
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> hehe
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> okay so I've reverted the !! objects in the gap board so they don't randomly take 20 gems
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> that is a good
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> I added a sensor tower to the coral area, which leaves two unclaimed towers in the remaining undeveloped area of the map
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> also obviously i played some of game tonight despite promising to tomorrow. i guess that means i played tonight and will play again tomorrow
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> tomorrow is 1 week to deadline
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> oh yeah we're trying to by august
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> yes, code freeze july 31
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> oh i got you, so we can beta
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> 413 kb. 723a is up. we're only 7k away from linkadv2 size. just confirmed, 502K still fine in zeta
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> lololol. most of our boards are very low-impact
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> okay we have a hard limit. 522K is fine, 542K is not
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> noted. also, once we've got the first one out the door, we can always start working on a lightweight version that is more likely to run more stably
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> 542622 is the limit for zeta using zzt 3.2 executable
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> we're clearly doing SOME kevedit/zeddity stuff, and even the optimizations i'm thinking of aren't likely to be problems unless someone is stalking my coding optimization methods, but (i say my as if i didn't basically glean them all from other people)
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> LBC's coding style includes pre-binds and pre #end
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> right, that'll save us some space
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> the pre-binds in particular will not point to me
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> lol they ARE a pain to get working though, we will need to be prepared to test boards with large amounts multiple times
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> there are several boards where pre-binds are possible but haven't been implemented. wanted to do them at the end
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> yeah that tracks. we can always keep a checklist on each board in another excel file, err another sheet of the workbook, so we know what's been optimized and what's not
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> drop the notes boards and we go down to 405k
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> boards with lights and large amounts of dead plants will probably be most helpful. oh neat and we should keep A version that has those for posterity but def should not include in the final because it might point to multiple authors
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> yes, there are lots of boards with over a 50 #binds that will save minimum 0.5k
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> lololol. we decided LBC would give objects intelligible names right
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> yes. @Name, capital and intelligible
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> sad, but probably for the best
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> switching that up wouldn't make a massive difference, no more than 200b on 10 boards
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> especially not once we pre-bind, and we're using the #e and :e at end (as an example) instead of #end. i'm amazed how well that main engine holds up
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> yah it's very robust and good. really a triumph Mr.L
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> i did a MASSIVE amount of exploring in tongiht's run in one go and it only got off by ... up to idk 5-10 cycles. at least, it wasn't an invisible amount but not really obnoxious
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> yes, not perfect snapping but close enough for seamless gameplay
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> i REALLY hope people don't just do the "did you make this?" "no" method of deduction, because that would be a little anticlimactic. i want to feel the walls closing in dammit
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> LBC made it and we made LBC
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> lol oh for the record i'm not so much worried about having to evade questions myself. i'm worried everyone else will get counted out too easily by doing the commonsense boring thing. what i really want is people arguing over this hermeneutically :stuck_out_tongue:
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> ah fair. it's not a spartacus situation where there are a lot of people who are likely to claim LBChood
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> nope
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> PHEW, kevedit 1.1.2 doesn't crash like, at all
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> yay
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> well, it crashes if you test more than 4 lines of #play
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> yeah i think that's new
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> but not when saving or loading or switching boards
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> Mr.C good news, prebinding will save about 1108 bytes on board 5,2 so we will maybe see higher savings per board at least for larger-object-count boards
07/23/2021 <Mr.B> I say we make the game as big as it can be. not a byte smaller
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> granted that's a REALLY high one, but it also applies to 3 or 5 others. i'm going to work 1,5 and also 1,4 unless one of yall has claimed one or the other already. i'm mainly jsut wanting to flesh out the void edge on 1,5 and add torchy engine
07/23/2021 <Mr.B> nah it's yours
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> I just played through. When clone appears and torch goes out, does clone still add 1 ammo per second? there should be an #if st3 on the give ammo. also I think the journal in Mr.L lab always thinks its dark and i dont know why
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> weird, i thought you fixed that
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> I thought I did too. Also It's really important to get a test on the 5,1 follow the rabbit. I knew exactly what I was doing and it was really hard
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> fwiw, i had no clue until just now it was actually a puzzle. that's an exaggeration
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> It auto-solved with a walkby in the original configuration. I modified the configuration and now it's nearly impossible
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> like i knew a puzzle existed but i had no clue what it was or how to solve
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> right, so there are some options ... oh, the solution is pretty simple. Just reduce the number of nodes
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> i figured it out. ert, not the puzzle
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> k, the journal?
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> but in the coral lab it's just a missing "not" for "if not st3"
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> ah, aha
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> ok i left prettied 1,5 and 1,4 in the drive. not 100% sure i'm sold on the decorations
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> loveley, I'll have a peek
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> was going for something glassy?
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> does it make sense to plop a sensor tower on 1,4?
07/23/2021 <Mr.B> How many are left?
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> two or three
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> yes--i think so.
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> okay, now there's one or two left
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> i realize "south of weird" is not a very descriptive board name because it could be like 3 or 4 boards in the game
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> is all good
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> oh, you mean like north of the purple laser puzzle?
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> I'll update the spreadsheet
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> aight
07/23/2021 <Mr.B> I'll probably put one at 2'1
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> good
07/23/2021 <Mr.B> But we can wait until the area is filled out
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> and between C and D one can be removed
07/23/2021 <Mr.B> To see what is natural
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> if we need and extra one up there, because they're quite close
07/23/2021 <Mr.B> K
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> okay now I have fixed the journal for reals
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> yay. Mr.C are you versioning again soon? like in the next 30 minutes or so?
07/23/2021 <Mr.C> ya, 23b up
07/23/2021 <Mr.B> i be fbebrn
07/23/2021 <Mr.L> sweet
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> any char recommendations for the pick?
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> 238 next to 45
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> a trident pick?
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> other way
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> oh lol yes that looks better
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> i have 2 requests for filemanager: 1 title 2,4 "buncha buncha rocks" and 2 link 2,4 and 1,4
07/24/2021 <Mr.B>

07/24/2021 <Mr.L> that's awesome
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> yah that rules
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> oh! is there any possibility of the player getting disappeared near the place where we do NOT intend them getting disappeared? i ask because stars were still spawning near me near the conveyors by holy mountain (7,4) i don't THINK it's a large possibility
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> is it possible for a star to disappear a player?
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> oh good question
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> if it is then I need to rethink that section
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> maybe it's not. ddddddddddang, conveyor isn't on the wiki of zzt yet: https://wiki.zzt.org/wiki/Player closest note here: "The player is meant to effectively be indestructible, even on game over, but can be erased from a board as a result of the conveyor stat glitch. The player's tick function handles input, so if the player is destroyed in this manner, ZZT itself will become unresponsive."
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> https://discord.com/channels/446459554297937920/688873969247715467/860628805222400060
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> ok fine we WILL go use 3.2 for that' of course he said with the clone around...
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> is that what you're doing? swapping stats with the conveyor?
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> https://discord.com/channels/446459554297937920/463194513637244938/492988784560832522 this too
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> something like that i think it actually swaps the player stat to something other than the conveyor
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> https://discord.com/channels/446459554297937920/463194513637244938/495075034667155456
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> trying to make a dead forest. does the gray look too metallic?
07/24/2021 <Mr.B>

07/24/2021 <Mr.L> good q. maybe if a couple were white and a couple were brown?
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> http://zzt.org/fora/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3788&p=69328#p69328 stars aren't pushable so you can't swap bug em

07/24/2021 <Mr.C> ya I like it
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> yep. i wonder if this is also why you have to "chase" the bomb and it doesn't trigger the other way
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> this is also why the player can be turned into a lion or tiger
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> well peeps we are if nothing else going to present Quite a Delight for people. glad to know there's no danger on those stars creating an issue
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> ya stars are 100% fine
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> lol #put star creates stars that last longer than torches. ok this is a stupid question but... oh wait durr, had to convince myself stars weren't pushable and was like HOW then i did a quick test. i think it was 'throwing' me that they push other things. the stupid question was going to be 'how do we know stars aren't pushable' because usually they're pushing things, but well you see the previous 3 lines
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> I checked elements.pas to be very sure
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> ooh nice. we need to get dos to write up the disappearing player for the wiki i think
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> agreed
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> i really, really hope he decides to stream the feeb
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> added a few boards. not done but I figured I'd upload. But the mine section of the shielded lab board is ready to test
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> Attachment file type: unknown PHOE722d.zzt 421.15 KB
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> of course he will stream it. oh also I haven't put in the torch counters yet
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> ya s'ok. which boards did you modify, I will merge
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> I am pleased with little funky puzzle thing that's gonna be in the mine
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> right, it's a mysterious 40-board 400kb world, natch
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> 1'1, 1'2, 2'1, 3'1. oh but you updated the shielded lab in a later file I think so you may need to copy/paste it over. Alright my hand is hurting pretty bad so I'm calling it. I've been working at home without a mouse on my laptop the last couple days and it's killed my hand
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> oh dear
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> fffff
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> i will probably be sleeping pretty soon myself
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> my contribution tonight

07/24/2021 <Mr.L> lol Mr.B is the ... are the mines supposed to be dark red? err the 1,3 and surrounding
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> I'm not sure what you mean... oh
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> somehow i thought you intended for someone to pretty up that portion later and i had started to do so on a linked board. i now realize i need to repretty 1,4
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> what's the latest 1' 4 look like?
07/24/2021 <Mr.L>

07/24/2021 <Mr.L> but i think that can be modified to segue better into what you did
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> oh yeah there should be a fade from light red to dark. 1' 3 can be made prettier but should be mostly dark. here's the bottom
07/24/2021 <Mr.B>

07/24/2021 <Mr.L> yeah
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> did you play through 1' 3 yet? any aesthetic changes there need to be duplicated on the companion board
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> I was gonna ask, before you go: where all do you #give ammo 1?
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> In general I'm making the nw corner the old abandoned extraction areas
07/24/2021 <Mr.B>

07/24/2021 <Mr.L> i did play 1,3
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> the object on the right of each of these. so there are three objects that give ammo, in turn
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> thak
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> reasonable-ish blend i think
07/24/2021 <Mr.L>

07/24/2021 <Mr.B> yeah that works, and the lower right of 1' 3 can have some red added
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> oh right, to sort of smooth it over. it might actually be best to leave that for now and go over it in zedit later on
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> I haven't done any blending with 2' 3 either yet
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> ya dont worry too much about that, atlas mode will come
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> yeah I figured it's lower on the priorities atm. How many research stations we got?
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> 6. still says 3 on mission central
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> one more for an even 7?
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> absolutely
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> even 7? Mr.B i have some math information: 7 is odd
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> lol
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> I'm thinking numerology in which 7 is most complete
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> perfect
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> lol
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> but i lol'd
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> it's weird that by some definitions your life is perfect if you're dead
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> if you have a good spot for a lab do eet
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> or at least perfected
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> I'm making a big lake and I'm thinking of putting one on an island, that is only accessible with some... thing
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> the pick, somehow
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> maybe the lake is shallow but hazardous and can be accessed once you buy that suit? (i.e. #change water fake)
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> or a sea of positrons, and the antibaryonic suit gets you thru
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> yeah. So I'm thinking somewhere around 3' 1 will be the main lake part, probably with island, but "water" or whatever will spill into surrounding boards. I'm not feeling very possessive of the lake design if anyone is feeling inspired. But the original idea that the mine + factory + dead forest + lake were all related
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> antiwater. two antiprotons covalently bound to an antioxygen
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> sounds good to me. I don't think you could do this with 3.2 but it'd be cool if it was solid, churning objects, and if you have the suit it kind of clears a path for you and fills in again around you. if we go if the suit access that makes the suit non-optional
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> already non-optional
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> ah
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> lab 13 is in the antimatter core
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> oh awesome, so antimatter fits the theme
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> is 3,4 claimed for lake?
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> 3,4 is not claimed for anything rn
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> oh sorry i meant 4,3
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> 4,3 also not claimed
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> ok cool. (3,4) was already done by me i think
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> yes, it exists but I haven't claimed or repurposed it
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> lol. ok i'll claim 4,3
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> do some of these boards like 2' 4 need gameplay added? or do you have plans
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> idk how i feel about 2,4. on the one hand it just kinda sits there and (mostly from a distance) looks pretty i think maybe we could stand to put some worldbuilding flavor or whatnot there (maybe a dead or alive plant or three, or some flavor text hiding in a hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?), but i don't think any particular gameplay is needed
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> agreed. the surrounding boards have a lot
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> one thing we could do: hide a small bombable alcove like here
07/24/2021 <Mr.L>

07/24/2021 <Mr.L> nothing necessary to finish the game, just leave enough of a slit to make players wonder and super-observant ones might come back later and find it, maybe there's a puzzle or something inside, with like a very small lore-drop reward? otherwise you just go through, collect a couple gems, on to the real puzzle
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> i like that idea
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> awesome
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> ok i've put some plants down and i'll work on the alcove tomorrow
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> remember when checking for bomb you are looking for either "bomb" or "bombsuit"
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> i cheated and copied from another board lol
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> :thumbsup:
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> If this were any other game I'd say given the raw number of boards left to do there's still a lot of work but it feels like we're so close given the huge amount of work that's been done, I mean I feel like I'm basically making the equivalent of any other game map but in a week
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> hehehe
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> though most modern maps are packed tight and this one is a bit more spread
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> yes
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> so how big is it now?
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> 419. if we want it to be playable on an actual dos machine we will have to start chopping content
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> what's the limit for that? 400?
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> beyond 420000 you'd need to start getting VERY creative to play it in dos. maybe 430 on some machines?
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> well if making the code more efficient doesn't get us there and we have to choose between cutting content and giving dos the middle finger I know where I stand. not dr. dos mind you XD
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> oh yeah give dos os the middle finger, tbh tho
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> yah we're treating our hard limit as 542622 bytes since that's where zeta craps out
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> LBC has been coding in relatively un-spartan fashion so far, so there's a possibility he'll save a lot of space with various tricks. the nice thing about having so many boards is that that stuff will add up
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> oh necessarily
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> LBC could always take it upon himself to do a "dos-compatible" challenge later
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> TRUE
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> for shielded lab east, what about keeping it largely as is and blocking off entry from the other sides? Right now I am going through and optimizing what I can. Some boards are dropping by 3k and more
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> That could work bc I was thinking of continuing the rock slide from 2' 4. Or is that three? In any case the factory board
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> tight - for minimap purposes it would be easier if the whole thing was a solid color -

07/24/2021 <Mr.C> we can add a bit of texture to the bit the player sees too
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> K that works too though there should be some blending with light red. Oh right I forget with minimap you have tight object limits

07/24/2021 <Mr.B> yeah that works. i like the black on red details too
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> I extended them a little bit into the other board as well
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> i'll be doing a little more work this afternoon. i woke up feeling pretty well this morning so provided i don't feel/see evidence of worse tonight, i have an outdoor game night
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> Had to do some work this morning but I'll try to do a bit more map work tonight. I really like the look of the fade built with 2x blocks. Did you try playing through the west side of the shielded lab board?
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> not yet but I get it
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> Beginning at1'1
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> is it appropriate to make the bombs cycle 1? I thought about that
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> Oh maybe. Will have to test and see how it plays. But that would up the danger. Oh you know what... It would be great if you have to JET out of there
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> oaky so the spreadsheet, 2nd tab: "Board breakdown and size reductions" I've got us back down go 396k
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> what does "unoptimized" mean
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> Means I haven't made an optimization pass, or one would save <500b
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> ok. so we want "Y" and "N" for any cases with large object counts? might i suggest was use a category like "P" or something other than Y and N for the "this isn't worth our time" category?
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> also that's fantastic. ok so on [nightmare ii], that's a Mr.B board right? if all the "a" and "b" objects are exactly the same as like-lettered what i'm doing will save some space
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> It'll have to come down below 20k regardless. Mr.B you'll have to let us know if there are lots of duplicate objects to bind in, or if we're going to be using lotsa step values with #if blocked rndp cw flow char 90 and so forth
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> it might get down below 10
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> Oh yeah I didn't use any #binds. How big is it now?
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> if you set the step values so that everything is blocked and then start the object code with a :thud and some randomness to determine the letter, and use #become (makes a board edge) instead of #die, you will be able to get the same effect with a single object.
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> it's like 23k, 22 and change
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> over 20kb. actually i think you can get the same-letter-same-movement thing already, just bind all the As to A
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> That was my original plan Mr.L
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> ooooooooooh brilliant yes. that makes sense. (the question is would lbc go further and attempt it in one object? i'm inclined to think lbc would do what Mr.B originally envisioned, if i understand right)
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> lemme see what it looks like, one mo
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> I thought about it but I didn't feel like figuring it out
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> Attachment file type: unknown n2opt.brd 7.75 KB
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> fuk i missed an object
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> Attachment file type: unknown n2opt2.brd 7.78 KB
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> something funky happened with all the g's
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> G's be like that
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> ok maybe i messed up the distribution somewhere because the optimized version feels way too 'clean' compared to the unoptimized. idk if that makes sense
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> What cycle did you use
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> same cycle, but i wonder if something about pre-binding makes things more 'in sync' than objects that just happen to have the same code
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> Like snaps cycle 2 objects to the same timing?
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> wait are there supposed to be cycle 2 ooooooooooooooh
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> That's why I asked
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> i'm confused though, i'm looking at 724a and i don't see cycle 2 objects. oh wait i just played 724a again i must have been seeing things, it looks approximately as 'clean' as the version i sent you. if it appears the same to yall i think we're safe to use this version, though if one of yall wants to take a pass at optimizing differently please do, i hope i didn't step on any toes jumping into that
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> Oh ok, So it looks the same?
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> i THINK so. or at least, it's the same in terms of objects of same kind moving in lockstep
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> Oh did I use cycle 1 objects? I forgot that
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> i think i just for some reason didn't notice the three like objects in a row on the original version the first couple times i watched it, or when i went back to check them against each other i saw a freakishly unsynced example of how the original works. yeah they're all cycle 1, at least from spot-checks... we COULD randomly change some to cycle 2 if we wanted that variety though, could be interesting
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> I made one too, one sec
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> nope, that many objects with step values
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> bad juju?
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> even if the :thud label is front and center, is incredible slow. like 1 fps
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> one feeb per second
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> it looks decent but way too slow. better to stick with #bind a
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> If some of the letters are not cycle 1 and the original object sets to cycle one in code would that create fast objects that are the same but sightly staggered?
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> probably yeah. we could even mix cycles 1-3 if we wanted to?
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> I think there needs to be at least one /i for that to be true, but I could be wrong
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> one sec, i think you're right
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> it might be moot. just with simple #binds we go down to under 8k which is the same as when I had them all bound to the same object
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> Haha
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> simple binds or pre-binds?
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> pre-binds
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> oh ok, yes
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> but like, ten of them a-j
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> that's the board posted above? if you make some of the pre-bounds cycle 2 and add /i#cycle 1 to the start of all the a-j base objects you do get some noise back, or some noise period, still not certain what difference i actually saw or didn't see. wait did we BOTH go to the trouble of doing pre-bind experiments on this
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> a bit yes, though I made some other changes as well. I have us down to 7811
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> cool
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> I also did the thing with cycle 1-3 and a #cycle 1 after the first /i
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> 7692. I think that's as far as we're getting
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> gj. 14ish kb is good (i mean in terms of savings)
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> down to 383k

07/24/2021 <Mr.C> 24b is up. hopefully these optimizations don't break anything, I think I was really thorough but you know
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> we'll know pretty quickly if a pre-bind breaks because the object basically won't do anything at all, so that's nice. (he said, from way too much experience accidentally breaking pre-binds)
07/24/2021 <Mr.C>

07/24/2021 <Mr.L> holy crap
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> nearly done now
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> gents we made a massive game
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> Mr.B you still planning on making something out of 3,3?
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> Yes will start tonight
07/24/2021 <Mr.L> I'm hitting a bit of a creative energy wall today. It's like the leisure equivalent of "everything sounds filling for dinner today but nothing is actually appealing"
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> Go swimming and come back. Just returned from swimming in a nearby reservoir and it's always very enlivening
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> Do we have any free flags? If we don't have flags, can I use keys or is that too out of step with the game. Was considering turning the shielded lab puzzle into a simple "get the keys and unlock it" deal... This has the added benefit of giving another reward for exploration. For example for 3' 3 I'm thinking of putting in some kind of key that is clearly visible but inaccessible until you get the bomb pack
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> tons. list of flags is in the drive
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> document called "flags"
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> Oh ty
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> well "diary entries and flags", but yes
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> wow four flags left!!
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> ya. piggybacking and sequencing means we got flags for days
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> Ok I think I'll do piggybacking keycards for the pew pew machine. Thoughts?
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> Oh I like that. what about re-using the red keycard for the pew pew, and then adding a blue keycard somewhere
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> Good idea. Where's the red?
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> it's in the satellite lab on the desk, if you open the door normally. On the floor, if you blow the door up.
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> And what's it used for? I forgot. The well?
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> yes. nothing down the well but bwaaaa
07/24/2021 <Mr.C> WOO we're down to 369k! I cut 71k out of the file size today, c is up
07/24/2021 <Mr.B> Wow
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> I started 3' 2 and 3' 3. I hate it at the moment, but the general layout probably won't change
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> Attachment file type: unknown PHOE724z.zzt 385.72 KB
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> I tried doing a curvy path that goes up and down across 3'2 and 3'3 with water and spinning guns but it didn't work well at all
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> any other changes I should know about?
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> maybe if the top and bottom rows are safe it would work. let me think
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> these keys to unlock the pewpews look cool

07/25/2021 <Mr.B> just those two boards for now... good!
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> those are doors so a red and a blue key will be needed
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> I added the red card object to 3'3 and changed it blue. didn't modify the code though
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> giant laser is exactly the sort of thing that would call for a traditional key situation
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> and I couldn't come up with a good reason for there to be a blue card in this weird spot. one idea was a kind of emergency shelter/hermit hut. the two keys to fire the big pew pew feels straight out of a nuclear weapon scenario. I think the twisty passage is salvageable if I make a safe rows on the top and bottom and use objects with predictable repeating shot patterns. I guess I should put something in the middle of it so there's a reason to travel it in the first place, also gotta edit some of the terrain
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> 25a is up on the drive. it has everything we've done so far, 371k. I think we'll be just fine for size
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> 3'2 and 3'3 will be pretty small I think
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> yah I can't imagine us increasing the game size by 13%. Not I can't imagine we would be unable, I can't imagine we would be so foolish
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> haha yeah I don't have the foolishness in me
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> I don't think I have another round of optimizations in me
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> it's time to finish for sure. Mr.C if you have ideas for the antiwater section in 3'1 and bordering boards you can go ahead. g'night all... It just occurred to me that you COULD do a thing where if you have the suit a path clears before you right as you approach it, though the way I'm thinking you'd be limited to a straight line but that would be enough. I'm imagining objects that check if alligned, and when you are aligned it tells certain objects to remote put stuff--either empties or anti-water (whatever it looks like)
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> interesting. limited to a straight line is not a dealbreaker
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> I think the effect should work. lining up all those objects could be tricky and could be expensive, but the path doesn't have to be wide
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> something to keep an eye out for. not board 1,3 but there is a board to the west of mission central
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> the one with the statues?
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> Probably not, it's a recent thing - something is causing the engine to be off by like 30 ammo
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> oh huh
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> the torch went out at 170 and I'm not sure where it happened, but if you see it and can repro lemme know. okay signing off for now
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> made a quick proof of concept and it works. ok signing off too. it's a neat effect though. feels like walking on water
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> awesome - if you feel up to implementing it :thumbsup: if you just want to share your work so I can see how you've done it also :thumbsup:. I had some ideas for this board I hope it gels with what you were thinking - I put in some old mining gear and a notice board:

07/25/2021 <Mr.B> yeah that's great
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> this is a real basic test I threw together last night but you get the idea:
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> Attachment file type: unknown lilfaith.brd 2.84 KB
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> that's 3'1
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> also the new animation for getting the chemometer is pretty fancy. definitely reads "unseal the important thing"
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> I'd probably expand the "cleared" section a bit around the player, Since we have flags to spare I'm thinking of putting in a little switch/locks puzzle in a twisty path b/w 3'2 and 3'3
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> marvelous
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> And adding some kind of pipeline from the factory to the anti water, So the twisty passage is some kind of access tunnel
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> awesome. I think I have something for 2'1, a paddle wheel that's been destroyed by antiwater
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> So it used to be water there? But then it became anti water?
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> yes
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> I like it
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> and maybe a journal about how "as a child I wondered for so long why thre was more matter than antimatter in the universe. With this tragedy, we may finally have an answer that approaches the truth"
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> Also I think the lab in the anti water should be on a board above 3'1, Let the player go across that boundary for maximum effect
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> yes definitely

07/25/2021 <Mr.C> sensor tower on the east side of this board? I figure it's not a bad spot because there is a teleporter so if you're heading west you get a bit of a boost. I'll repurpose C I think, so it leaves us one still
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> Yeah that's good. You moved a lab to 1'2?
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> its not accessible, no chemometer inside
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> Oh ok
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> I will probably destroy part of it so it's clear it's not an objective

07/25/2021 <Mr.C> there
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> I'm liking the look of that
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> getting close on the map too

07/25/2021 <Mr.B> If we have an extra flag we should remove the shield from the map after you blow it up
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> indeed! we have such
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> The most trivial use of a flag xd. Oh 4'1 and 4'2 are blocked off? Interesting
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> that's how they are presently, to prevent bombless folks from entering the post-bomb area
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> Yeah makes sense. Hmm what to put there... I'm trying to think of what color we need
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> we could continue to extend that big yellow. At this point I'd be more keen to use our remaining k expanding on the content closer to home
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> Closer to mission central?
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> yes. more things to do around mission central with suit and pick and bomb and such
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> Ah yeah that makes sense
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> secrets to discover, lore. that being said there's already ... hecka content
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> Tantalizing things you see early on but can't get to. Could add little secret side quests that unlock a minor change in the ending. Help little critters or something
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> ha, the metroid method! haaa yessss!
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> Exactly lol
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> I did it without adding a stat to the map board. I think I've discovered something not known
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> !!!
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> SO. this code:

07/25/2021 <Mr.C> the object moves the 2 spaces out, does the things, and moves back - IN THE SAME CYCLE
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> I may not be able to process language but at least I've got all these adorbs critters with me
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> oh interesting: they hide on your ship, the repos dont get them, and now you have an antimatter cat
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> Haha yes
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> but that #walk opp flow
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> Teleporting antimatter cat
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> it appears to move the object to the end of the stack for walk movement. I don't know what to make of it
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> End of the stat list???
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> no, it doesn't change its stat AFAIK, the order in which objects move if they are #walk ing is not based on stat order, as opposted to /move which is. so what happens is
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> #walk is so weird
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> it moves, does the thing, and because it moved west (and I'm assuming west + north will work) it moves it back in the same cycle
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> :o
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> so like, an object warps out there with step values, removes the white textthat makes the shield on the map, and warps back and you never see it move. my mind is so blown rn
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> So cool
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> that means you can make things arbitrarily happen on the screen, not just in single isolated points, but also relative to any isolated point, in a single cycle, without the risk of interference
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> Will have to try this later. If we wanted to do this we could make the cat appear in different places, one after the other. You rescue it three or so times and it hides on your ship
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> This very much
07/25/2021 <Mr.C>

07/25/2021 <Mr.C> i love that this game has "atlas appeal"
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> what about just making 4,1 completely inaccessible? bring down the antilake, bring up the red rock, and say "tough tomatoes"
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> @sign
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> #end
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> :touch
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> Tough tomatoes
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> But there are literally tomatoes blocking the path
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> Yeah I think blocking it makes sense
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> "these tomatoes are too tough for you"

07/25/2021 <Mr.C> oh boyyy
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> Yeah that's good. Wow so close
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> upside to this, I now have a spot to put all those #if alligned goons on the edge
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> Yes
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> a problem that will need to be resolved: if a player gets reset while on the bridge, if we really want to take it across the water, there is a possibility the board edge will be in 'water state' and they will never be able to cross again. we can fix that in an obvious way, which is just the board edges remain fakes all the time. we can maybe fix that in a sneaky way, by having some kind of sandbar or debris the player can walk on that straddles the board edge

07/25/2021 <Mr.C> lab 16 is online. here's what I'm thinking: there's already a chemometer plugged in at lab 16, you can't pull it out but you can use it to take a reading. we piggyback the flag we're currently using frivolously for breaking the shield, and we keep track of whether lab 16 has been visited. The only thing it affects is whether Apparition triggers the endgame sequence at Mission Central. oh, and it triggers a Lab diary entry as well.
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> Apparition?
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> @Apparition is the name of the object that triggers the ending sequence on mission central, with the hallucinations that appear
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> I am not quite following. So you can beat the game without taking the reading? Also that board has real Zelda dungeon entrance energy. Looks good
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> you'd still have to take the reading to beat the game, ut it doesn't drain your chemometer's battery or deteriorate you
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> And what were you saying about the endgame sequence? Which one? The repos? 4'2 might be a good place to first find the anti-matter cat
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> yes, the hallucinations that appear on mission central trigger the endgame sequence
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> Oh right I forgot about those. The people ones. There are conditions in which apparition doesn't trigger the endgame sequence?
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> yes. if you don't have all the labs, then Apparition will wait. 725b is up, the walking on water sequence is very cool
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> Oh I see what you're saying. I thought you were saying that there are conditions in which you could see the ending hallucination without the end sequence
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> new diary entries up for pick and lab 16. also lab 16 is my favorite now

07/25/2021 <Mr.C> We need to start listing things we want to try and get done before we call it "done". Mr. B you mentioned something and now it's fallen out of my brain... not cats, it was a day or two ago? okay lessee - the nightmare sequence is still not put in anywhere
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> Was it a map thing?
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> I dont remember, i dont think so
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> One thing I was thinking but haven't mentioned or done was changing the 1'3 monster tentacle things to reach out a bit slower by adding a delay in the objects closest to the player's position. Someone mentioned somewhere getting 30 ammo too many
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> I think maybe I wasn't paying attention and wandered onto a board without a TCtr, but yes, the torch went out and I had to wait for the ammo to count from 170-200. but it definitely wasn't 1,3 related because I didn't go to 1,3. Just need to make sure TCtr is everywhere, since I think that's what it was. you mentioned you hadn't TCtr'd your levels yet
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> Yeah
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> I have a pretty good idea for cat - cat has step value of 1,3 or something and plenty of space to warp around in; while cat is in motion it is char 250, but as soon as it's blocked flow it goes 249 7 9 227. waits for contact, and then makes a "mew" sound and goes 7 250 #walk rndp flow, after it mews a couple times it vanishes for good. mew sound is ++CDD#EFFED#DC#C, ever so slightly faster on the rise than the fall
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> Yes that sounds good. I mean I didn't listen to that but the idea sounds good
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> aight. Mr.L I am going to create a kitty zone in 1,5 unless you had other plans for that area.
07/25/2021 <Mr.L> no conflicting plans
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> 25c is in the drive. I invite you to have a look at the cat with +cat0 and +pick... there, I added a little scratching post as well. not all the cat areas need to be that huge, I was just testing the movement
07/25/2021 <Mr.L> i am going to be bad and play a tiny of rogue legacy before stream, despite that i'm not sure if my phoebus quotient was met on friday. i will also be fleshing out that secret on the rocks board in feeb after stream and working on 3,4 or 3,3 or whichever one it was i claimed, unless it's been drafted into lake use
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> added quantum cat, new diary entries, new death. I'm updating the 2nd tab of the google sheet with any remaining notes we have
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> If I do this lil switch puzzle passage thing between 3'2 and 3'3 what should be the reward?
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> several options: red key, more points (can't quite get max health + max gems rn), access to a Cat Zone
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> also considered something silly like a closet full of buttons/levers to start the pew pew. atm east of the shielded lab is useless though it looks cool
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> it's not useless any more
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> oh!
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> it helps accelerate the player south from the sensor tower on 1,2
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> is the latest file up-to-date or are you working on one that will soon be up
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> 725f is very nearly up to date, I've made a couple changes. I'll put up g here
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> k
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> up
07/25/2021 <Mr.L> lol i never saved my work on that alcove apparently
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> fffffffffffffffuuuuuuu
07/25/2021 <Mr.L> wait what happened
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> Considering I had the world corrupt on me like 4 times I've lost remarkably little work
07/25/2021 <Mr.L> oh, aye
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> oh nice little teleporter on 2'2, I was wondering what you meant by accelerate
07/25/2021 <Mr.C> current game is broken since I saved with the world having 1 torch. uploaded another g with that fix
07/25/2021 <Mr.B> Did you put the blue card somewere?

07/26/2021 <Mr.C> I haven't - I thought that might be an all right spot for the blue key tho, I made the thing happen again with the 170 gems and the torch going out. I can repro and fix now
07/26/2021 <Mr.B> @Mr.L what's the west border of 4'3 looking like? Tomorrow I'm gonna try to hash out 3'3/3'2 but I'm calling it tonight.
07/26/2021 <Mr.C> I'm gonna add a Cat Zone to 5,6 and then I'll call it too
07/26/2021 <Mr.B> You had a productive day, Thanks for executing some of my ideas and keeping things moving. I lol'd when I tested lab16.
07/26/2021 <Mr.B> do we have enough space where I can play with the water effect to try to make it smoother? I probably couldn't use bind and would need multiple objects
07/26/2021 <Mr.C> Whatcha have in mind, you think like a sequence of 3?
07/26/2021 <Mr.B> yeah just not the ladder effect. I think ideal if we had the space would be something similar to the way torchlight moves, but smaller. Perhaps the tiles surrounding the player, though that's tricky if you have to take into account the player's x axis position. annoying. maybe not worth it, but sequence of three rows (on behind, one aligned, one back) would look good
07/26/2021 <Mr.C> Yah real easy
07/26/2021 <Mr.B> actually I think taking account the x axis position wouldn't be too much more difficult, could set and clear invisibles somewhere depending on the x axis position, and when the objects on the right tell the objects to clear the path, they have an #if statement that checks for a color invisible that dictates whether they put or not. an extra line in each of the putting objects, and a few extra objects on the top... does that make sense?
07/26/2021 <Mr.C> you'd still have to have an object that would reliably align NS with the player, and if you want to have the player walk off the screen in both directions that's going to be hard
07/26/2021 <Mr.B> We'd still constrain them to the path. So maybe horizontal lines but the makes more sense, Unless there were boundaries revealed when you got close. Going to bed but I'll play with it tomorrow
07/26/2021 <Mr.C> okay h is up, we're about halfway through the K we had left. 369 > 393, and we have another 27k before we hit 420
07/26/2021 <Mr.L> would lbc hide an easter egg of a talking bright purple plant that makes you listen to a few boxes of text before finally spitting out 4 gems? or would that just be a troll on snorb with no purpose to our character? haha light purple i just realized what i did i was just following the prog from dark purple plants. feels like the latter, just checking. above all, saving this .zzt file so i don't lose my meager progress lol
07/26/2021 <Mr.C> The la vie moderne ref makes it harder to suspend disbelief, only an oldbie could have added that
07/26/2021 <Mr.L> true yeah no. not doing that, i'll come up with something else
07/26/2021 <Mr.B> I think we can shave off some bytes on lab16 board bc if they've made it this far we can assume they have the suit, right?

07/26/2021 <Mr.B> does lbc ever save bytes by putting an /i on the same line as a command?
07/26/2021 <Mr.C> Never has. We can’t assume they have the suit, no. The suit isn’t needed to get anywhere except lab 16 and crawling chaos and they’re both dead ends. We can look at abandoning some of the other style choices if we end up at 420k again
07/26/2021 <Mr.B> let me rephrase, 3'0: if they've gotten past 3'1 up to 3'0 they must have gotten the suit, right? so I can remove that check in 3'0
07/26/2021 <Mr.B> If an object is sent two labels in the same cycle does it just execute the second?
07/26/2021 <Mr.C> oh! yes very true and yes to the second thing too. label just sets its execution pointerso it will start executing wherever the pointer is. 26a is up. I added some teaser elements to the 1,5 and 5,6 cat zones. Cat teasers, if you will.
07/26/2021 <Mr.B> meow meow
07/26/2021 <Mr.C> 26b is up. I made a quick pass to eliminate RLE textures that wouldn't be visible to torchlight and came up with several K of savings
07/26/2021 <Mr.L> OO good call. wait where did you eliminate them
07/26/2021 <Mr.C> lemme have a look. 5,1 6,1 7,1 5,2 6,2 7,2 5,5 6,5 7,5 3,6 4,6 5,6 6,6 2,7 and 4,7 but the savings was minimal
07/26/2021 <Mr.L> i...and those changes are in 26b?
07/26/2021 <Mr.C> basically all my boards on the right side that i'd already optimized in other ways. yes
07/26/2021 <Mr.L> what textures were you speaking of? for some reason i assumed you meant walls that wouldn't be visible
07/26/2021 <Mr.C> small differences, replacing XOXO textures with XXOO, replacing XXOO with XXXX or OOOO if it's outside torch range
07/26/2021 <Mr.L> OH you meant just making them a single color instead of ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo so it still looks neat on the map
07/26/2021 <Mr.C> in atlas mode it makes the board edges somewhat more visible :/
07/26/2021 <Mr.L> you have some more you can save on the board w of mission central
07/26/2021 <Mr.C> yes
07/26/2021 <Mr.L> and uh, void (SW)
07/26/2021 <Mr.C> There's several that can still be optimized
07/26/2021 <Mr.L> that's pretty minimal though. this is such a giant f'ing map
07/26/2021 <Mr.C> ya she big
07/26/2021 <Mr.B> The biggest continuous zzt map you think? In one huge grid too, that's the amazing thing
07/26/2021 <Mr.L> might be. there's a couple big ones. oh nvm idk if this is truly continuous in the same way: https://www.rabbitboots.com/kfx-aux/mask-of-atlantis/zzt-mask-of-atlantis-half.png there's some non-euclidean stuff happening
07/26/2021 <Mr.L> but i'm low-key expecting we'll see some mask of atlantis comparisons. https://ckolderup.tumblr.com/post/38143301939/zzt-cartography http://casey.kolderup.org/misc/zzt-maps/U_MAZE-000.png may still have us beat

07/26/2021 <Mr.B> Oh lol
07/26/2021 <Mr.C> 26c is up - cat zones 2, 3, and 4 are up. I currently have it set up with 4 as the last. I have made a distinctive scratching post that's present at all cat zones
07/26/2021 <Mr.B> That's a great idea. Otherwise being at the right place at the right time would be tough to figure out
07/26/2021 <Mr.C> I've added several distinctive features. there is characteristic rubble outside of each entrance to the cat zones, there is, with the exception of the final cat zone (fixable), a way to remotely view the scratching posts prior to being able to unlock/visit the cat area
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> It's the 27th, how we lookin gents
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> This morning I started working on the lab 16 board like I described last night but I think the x axis variation is not gonna be worth the bytes. let's just adapt what we've got to cover three rows at a time. that will still add a fair amount but not be unwieldy
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> okay :thumbsup:
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> and will probably look better. let's just say it's really good we're on the home stretch cuz I am stretched thin
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> to paraphrase that ol medici slut Leonardo: ZZT games are never finished, only abandoned. but yeah let's close it down
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> ok now ferbus talk. what's the most efficient way to get three rows for the walking thru water effect
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> I'm converting it over now
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> ok
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> I think the most efficient way is to have 4 allignment objects and they change red blue cyan green. then instead of active on red, it's inactive on cyan, and so forth. That way it's only inactive on the inverse color
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> yeah i think that makes sense. BTW can you think of any examples of good and SIMPLE switch/gate zzt puzzles?
07/27/2021 <Mr.L> honestly the lancer puzzle in town remix was p good
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> I say simple bc lancer's was brilliantly executed and so so so so difficult
07/27/2021 <Mr.L> yeah
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> Way extremely hard
07/27/2021 <Mr.L> it was simple mechanically but not very simple structurally
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> switch/gate?
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> It felt great to solve it, but my experience was similar to dos's. took me over an hour to solve I think
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> flip the switch and the gates move up and down?
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> yeah
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> I have one in game. I modified the small purple loop puzzle to be one
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> I'm thinking for this path b/w 3'2 and 3'3 to have one that is fun and not too difficult. oh good to know
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> my method is pretty simple. Orientation of three items is [ABCD],[ABCD],[ABCD], with AAA being the solution. orientation of the first set triggers all three sets. orientation of the second set triggers the second and third set, and orientation of the third set only triggers itself until it flips from D back to A, then it triggers the first set. Then I set each initially them random 25% B, 50% C, and 25% D. it's just fiddly enough that it requires a few loops through to figure out, then it comes into place
07/27/2021 <Mr.L> i am drawing a blank as to what to put into this alcove. plant but more gems feels boring. hmm, oh, idea
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> I made a golden plant that's in exactly one location (so far) it has a cool animation and spits out 6 gems. a small delight. So if you need one more delightful secret grab that from 26e when I put it up
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> I made a big pipe that goes from the factory to the antiwater lake

07/27/2021 <Mr.L> oo
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> excellent

07/27/2021 <Mr.B> don't really know what I'm doing but just rolling with it
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> yeah that's the good stuff, that's apollonian horror right there, looks like a centipede.
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> it totally does haha, which I think is probably a good thing
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> it gives me the heebies
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> and possibly the jeebies
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> 26e is up, I added a bunch of teleporters (I'm thinking we may restrict their use so that they open up after some of the early game is complete, maybe around chy (2 labs done)
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> this is my contribution tonight. will upload. My final contribution besides cleanup and testing will be figuring out what to do with the mess of 3'2/3'3

07/27/2021 <Mr.B> the nice thing is the stakes are low for filling out the remaining boards, given how dang huge the game is already. I may scale back even more. Just do the blue keycard place in 3'3, and leave 3'2 mostly just atmospheric.
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> thanks for kickass tube
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> lol you're welcome
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> looks like it might come with a sticker that says "100% MEDICALLY ACCURATE"
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> lol right? haha it does look straight out of a hospital or something. Oh, Mr.C, so the file I uploaded is from a yesterday fork it looks like
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> I think including indoors we're at 62 boards?
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> but I didn't change anything besides adding the pipe
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> yes it's no problem, I will extract the delicious rubttuber and surroundings
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> I mean there may be some half-baked experiments with the water but obvs can be ignored
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> yeah, the three with the 1 gap by the way looks brilliant
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> oh good! I want to see
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> the player still has to move slowly through it but I like that
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> is it up?
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> it gives it a bit it gravitas, however it doesn't feel janky now it feels very right
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> oh good
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> 26e is up and it has the updated water sequence
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> yeah that's good. I didn't like that it was slow last night but it works with the 3 throws. too smooth wouldn't be right, like you said. 0'3 is not dark yet btw. man that's gonna be a great experience for the player, wondering what is across this mysterious lake... k gotta turn in tonight. good chattin'. good work
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> I had a pretty great idea for 3,2

07/27/2021 <Mr.C> the sign says "NO PHOTOGRAPHS"
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> are those bones?
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> I'm not sure whether to tell the player they are or not. But they read as bones to me
07/27/2021 <Mr.L> i'll have that secret sometime tonight and a start on 4,3.
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> how about some ancient cave art - do you think we could render it legible as such? have you read about this: https://nautil.us/issue/11/light/early-humans-made-animated-art
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> I got to see werner herzog's "cave of forgotten dreams" in 3d, they did a bit of demonstration of that effect. sweet, carvings it is
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> the little weav-y path to the south. Should I:
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> * Leave it alone, allowing neither north or south egress?
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> * Allow south to north egress but not north to south?
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> * Allow north to south egress but not south to north?
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> * Allow full access?
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> with the one-way egress, could be done the way it is elsewhere in the game with a little boulder that blocks one way but can be opened up from the other way
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> hmmm, I think it depends on whether there is some benefit to getting past the block if one way is blocked. as I understand it the player can get to the lake from the nw corner and there's no block there, so the path up from 3'3 is extra there.
07/27/2021 <Mr.L> hey all! is there supposed to be an impassable boundary between 4,3 and 4,4?
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> it might make sense if you couldn't go north but if you go south you open it up AND snatch the blue card
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> Not that I know of? Those are your boards right? I mean there probably could be? not sure
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> yes, that's entirely up to you. I don't know where that mark came from on the map. probably just copy paste errors
07/27/2021 <Mr.L> oh ok, excellent. i was confused
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> I guess it depends whether we want the player to be able to go directly north to the lake, or whether we want them to have to go around from the west. well there's a possibility that they could get north/south via 4'3 and 4'4 right? oh wait, right 4'2 is connected to 3'2 currently? I'll come back to this, gotta get back to work
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> close

07/27/2021 <Mr.C> my thought is they should be able to head north if they've already been to the lake, so have the path open up when heading south.
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> sounds good to me
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> 27b is up, I'm just fixing bugs and tweaking dialogue
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> what's this key about
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> That's the other key to the zip zap, blue and red. to reduce confusion I may change the color of the unrelated keycard
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> oh! they run on key keys, okay. I'm gonna work on 3'3 and the blue key
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> mucho rad
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> making some kind of hive structure with lil shacks
07/27/2021 <Mr.B>

07/27/2021 <Mr.B> but most will be ruined
07/27/2021 <Mr.B>

07/27/2021 <Mr.C> gorj
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> the transition from 3'4 is kinda jarring

07/27/2021 <Mr.C> Maybe we let a little of the 3,3 asthetic bleed into 3,4
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> whacha think Mr.L
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> This got me good. When you get there you'll see

07/27/2021 <Mr.B> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> decided to just do some simple switches

07/27/2021 <Mr.B> not really a puzzle but it will be a little engaging
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> o that's a good idea
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> the small thrill of opening gates and pulling levers. oh lol I still have objects shooting across the water
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> Ya those are fun. If you're into it I'd keep them but maybe drop their frequency so this random bullet coming at you is a surprise
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> I just cut it out. could maybe add one back in tho. k I am stopping for now. Here's what I did:
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> Attachment file type: unknownPHOE727c.zzt 411.50 KB
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> There is one object from the factory board (an explodable wall that opens the passage to 3'3
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> cool
07/27/2021 <Mr.B> I programmed the gate and switch on 3'3 only. now I'm gonna watch some tv
07/27/2021 <Mr.C> sounds good, I can copy it over from there as needed. thanks for the make!
07/28/2021 <Mr.L> aside from actually working my boards, i assume there's requests for beta
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> Always, though 4,2 and 4,3 are the only boards left
07/28/2021 <Mr.L> i think so. i think we change the blue dude out
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> o boy
07/28/2021 <Mr.L> ?
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> we so close to finish this
07/28/2021 <Mr.L> yeah we will! the nice part is, we've basically only talked about it to each other
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> yup
07/28/2021 <Mr.L> kept most of the creative energy trapped in this dm.
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> What all do you have in progress? Do you have partials on 4,2 / 4,3 / buncha rocks secret alcove ?
07/28/2021 <Mr.L> yeah just partials. one plan i DO have you should know about is hiding a plant in 5,3 that you access from 4,3. i have nothing on 4,2 but i can either claim 4,2 or cede the upper-left-hand corner of 4,3 to Mr.B, whichever works better
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> I have a thing planned, but it happens friday. friday saturday sunday I'm out. thursday I have meetings from 7-6:30 so imma be bushed. so tomorrow's it
07/28/2021 <Mr.L> i'll try to floor it tomorrow
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> aight lovely
07/28/2021 <Mr.L> there's a lot of small optimizations and testing that can be done over the weekend and we can reconnect early on next week before finally doing code-freeze
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> I'll go ahead and knock 4,2 out - did you have a plan to put a sensor tower in 4,3?
07/28/2021 <Mr.L> no but i can plan to put one there, just lmk what passage color it should be
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> dark green on gray. 4,2 is getting chopped - it was already blocked on 3 sides. so plan on having the north border of 4,3 inaccessible
07/28/2021 <Mr.L> sounds good. i need to go to bed so i have a cahnce of better restedness. then tomorrow i can work, then dinner, then FEEB

07/28/2021 <Mr.L> excellent
07/28/2021 <Mr.L> tomorrow:
07/28/2021 <Mr.L> * i'm going to try and get "buncha buncha rocks" (1,4), 4,3 and 5,3 updates
07/28/2021 <Mr.L> * planning to get 4,3 to where there's no path north
07/28/2021 <Mr.L> for smooth collab purposes requesting to know from @Mr.B whether i should reserve approximately the white-water portion of this screen for him

07/28/2021 <Mr.C> I did a thing
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> 28a is smaller by not much (3-5k) due to some board consolidation
07/28/2021 <Mr.B> What is the thing?
07/28/2021 <Mr.B> Something in thebus?

07/28/2021 <Mr.C> I think putting the map on the map also helps with overall atlas appeal
07/28/2021 <Mr.B> Isn't that where the first cat is?
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> first cat was moved east to 5,2
07/28/2021 <Mr.B> Ah ok. o are you going to draw a tiny mini map on the mini map?
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> nah, that would be rad but it's not canon
07/28/2021 <Mr.B> I think I would be a bigger fan of the map on the map if it weren't right in the center. But I'd like to hear Mr.L's opinion
07/28/2021 <Mr.L> I am a fan regardless of placement
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> If we end up with the K for it, we should move it to 4,0 and add something nice-looking for 4,2. that would be maximum atlas appeal
07/28/2021 <Mr.B> I'm thinking of changing the color of the hive chamber things on 3'3 to something besides red. is this better or worse
07/28/2021 <Mr.B>

07/28/2021 <Mr.C> I like it!
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> is that dark green solid textured with dark green on brown?
07/28/2021 <Mr.B> light red on dark green water technically
07/28/2021 <Mr.B> oh I have another idea
07/28/2021 <Mr.B>

07/28/2021 <Mr.B> make it kind of web-like. could carry this theme over to 1'3 to hint that the big nasty thing also took out this place
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> are they meant to be wet? So far every touchable water has been actual water in-game
07/28/2021 <Mr.B> maybe not
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> the green leaves us a lot of blending options open:

07/28/2021 <Mr.B> yeah that looks pretty good. I like the green stretching out. did you do the green yourself?
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> yes, just now
07/28/2021 <Mr.B> k I won't bother uploading. is that fake black on dark green? that looks good
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> yes
07/28/2021 <Mr.B> the water I used could be green normal on red
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> aye. that's the other nice thing about dark green is we can swap fg/bg
07/28/2021 <Mr.B> or even green on black, whatever looks right. I'm not picky
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> and keep waters out of it
07/28/2021 <Mr.B> yes
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> I'm thinking: some of the debris on that board, touch it and it says "You find some motivation and clean it up" I'm about 50/50 whether that's too silly
07/28/2021 <Mr.B> Haha, I like it if we have the space
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> yah it added <200 bytes
07/28/2021 <Mr.B> K I think I'm gonna pivot to testing. Oh we'll probably need some more gem spots, right?
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> we might - we're pretty flush now. I think we don't quite have 1000 points, or... 1500-odd, whatever it costs to fully upgrade everything. I put up 28b, the only difference is I went through and cleaned up the map to represent what we've actually got now

07/28/2021 <Mr.L> Oooo
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> atlas appeal for days
07/28/2021 <Mr.B> that's great
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> That's a thing these days, because the analysis tools for ZZT are powerful enough to encapsulate the format, the world itself becomes an art object, allowing the player to enjoy the game three ways. the first way is the playthrough natch, the second way is through analyzing the data, atlas mode, looking at the code, everything behind the scenes, the third way, which we're launching with this release, is the speculation about the authorship, an ARG implicit in the existence of the file
07/28/2021 <Mr.B> Should LBC make a post in zzt-worlds soon about releasing a game soon? On one hand I like the idea of a complete surprise drop. On the other, a post like that might throw people off our scent
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> There's only one more communication planned atm: LBC will ask whether there is someone good at zzt music that can spare a few cycles to assist with a project
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> Not related to current convo but something I hope to do before release if we have some k to spare, is go through and add a bunch of checks for st3 and "too dark" messages
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> Making the LBC post now. What channel u think? Just #zzt? Also this may be overkill but I’ve run everything LBC has said through quillbot so the word choice doesn’t match mine
07/28/2021 <Mr.B> amazing. zzt-worlds is the normal dev channel but a newbie might not know that
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> Yes, that’s what I’m thinking too. Maybe even #announcements with an @here really go ham on the footmouth
07/28/2021 <Mr.B> lol I think that's a bit too much. someone with LBC's expertise wouldn't make such a novice mistake. well what does @here do? does that ping everyone?
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> Yes
07/28/2021 <Mr.B> lol
07/28/2021 <Mr.L> it kind of makes sense for announcements. my announcement is that I'm looking for help
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> The ship of LBCseus - If you replace all the parts of a fictional zzter over time is it the same zzter
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> I think this is the final minimap
07/28/2021 <Mr.C>

07/28/2021 <Mr.C> actually it's really bothering me that it clearly says "fYi" in the hive
07/28/2021 <Mr.C>

07/28/2021 <Mr.L> oh RIGHT the thing! did you put the tower in yet
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> yes
07/28/2021 <Mr.L> oh ok
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> added, done and dusted
07/28/2021 <Mr.L> cool, totally spaced on that
07/28/2021 <Mr.C>

07/28/2021 <Mr.L> HOLY SHIT
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> that's what the map actually looks like (or it did before I started modding 4,3). derp we're at 417k comrades, we are officially under budget
07/28/2021 <Mr.B> Lol I'm not working tonight so that works for me. Excited to try the new puzzles though
07/28/2021 <Mr.L> excellent
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> it's all gonna be put up in a mo
07/28/2021 <Mr.L> cool. i'll be checking up on this chat in about an hour tops
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> kay. I'm adding one last element, I had a room in 3,2 I made but never populated. it has a message in it from the author: "I'm LBC, and I'm here to say hello! I hope you're having fun with my game! If you've played this far and would want to share your thoughts, please send an email to ellbisee@gmail.com. Thanks! This device is also a health device. It will grant you 300 health once! Enjoy!"
07/28/2021 <Mr.B> Can you throw in a slow spinning gun and we'll see how it plays?
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> I think I did? I think I did yes
07/28/2021 <Mr.B> Oh ok
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> all right. I believe it is good to go, 28c is in the drive, refresh your diary entries
07/28/2021 <Mr.B> 3kb is a nice buffer. Enough we can make changes, but not enough to go wild. Tbh I didn't think we were going to finish before August
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> oh! the thing, the actual thing from earlier was to make it so the gigpad asks at the very end if you want to speak to a mental health representative and it doesn't pick up
07/28/2021 <Mr.B> Yes
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> I didn't do that yet
07/28/2021 <Mr.B> Oh ok
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> That's the only thing we discussed that isn't in there in some form
07/28/2021 <Mr.B> We may need all three of those kbs. This is pretty slick so far
07/28/2021 <Mr.C> okay hold up. There are several boards where the objects go back to the title screen instead of story rested. the passages I mean, controlled by TCtr. I think I caught them all, 28d is up
07/28/2021 <Mr.L> Cool
07/29/2021 <Mr.C> every time I play this game for more than a few minutes
07/29/2021 <Mr.C> I just think "this game fucking rules"
07/29/2021 <Mr.C> well done y'all
07/29/2021 <Mr.L> thx man, u too
07/30/2021 <Mr.L> i think we should probably start writing a postmortem ... soon
07/30/2021 <Mr.C> this is why we have saved all the things
07/30/2021 <Mr.L> i mean it basically has three chapters
07/30/2021 <Mr.L> 1. Mr.L makes some maps because boredom, pushily suggests group project, makes weird torch counting engine
07/30/2021 <Mr.L> 2. light talk for several months where nobody actually does anything
07/30/2021 <Mr.L> 3. Mr.C does a bunch of cool things and writes copious amounts of text/makes lotsa boards
07/30/2021 <Mr.L> 4. Mr.B does some more cool things
07/30/2021 <Mr.L> 5. beta testing
07/30/2021 <Mr.L> 6. release
07/30/2021 <Mr.L> ok that's 6 chapters but #2 just took a while, i think you jumpin in jumpstarted stuff actually it's more like... what am i saying there's no way this postmortem is getting done in fewer than 8000 words or so
07/30/2021 <Mr.C> I think we might get a lot of mileage out of data visualizations
07/30/2021 <Mr.L> lol. OH one thing we COULD do
07/30/2021 <Mr.C> using atlas py on the files, and timelapse
07/30/2021 <Mr.L> yes! and take snapshots of the map from very early on, get it on the same 'scale' and make a quick animated gif from the first 5-9 tiles to the new
07/30/2021 <Mr.C> right exactly
07/30/2021 <Mr.L> i hope i still have some of the initial zzts, but even if not i might have a PNG we could repurpose
07/30/2021 <Mr.C> they're in the drive, back to january 13
07/30/2021 <Mr.L> obviously will bear acknowledging on my end that i was playing subnautica at the time (torch engine and initial atmosphere) which tbh, if anything is going to point to me it's probably going to be those blends
07/30/2021 <Mr.C> it might could - at this points its anyones guess how it will go down
07/30/2021 <Mr.L> yeah
07/30/2021 <Mr.C> I added too dark messages to dozens of objects 31a is in the drive
07/30/2021 <Mr.L> Which Ones
07/30/2021 <Mr.C> lab 16, the hooks, signs, suits and racks in the mine, broken lab V, the paddle wheel, the journal next to lab V, the top of the bwaaa tube and the ladder, lab 14, the signs warning about the crawling chaos, the sensors reading from the crawling chaos, the scratching posts, the unusual structure in 7,1, the no photographs sign, them message from LBC, the sign that says "emergency use only" in 3,2, the little stations on the semiconductor puzzle where you reconcentrate dopant and test connection, the graves and plinth, the vending machine, the objects near the "bones" guy on 7,2, the yellow plant on 7,2, the backpack and boulder dropper on factory board, the signs alerting about the minefield in the minefield board, the yellow keycard reader, lab H on 6,4, the satellite and lab A on 5,5, the Repo and its heart, and all bombable gaps on 5,5
07/30/2021 <Mr.C> also i went through "you walked into a trap" and used pre-binds where appropriate so we ended up at 408k still
07/30/2021 <Mr.C> I just uploaded phoe-b1, beta 1 candidate. I went through and added board hints like "you feel a message here" and "you feel something dangerous here"
07/30/2021 <Mr.C> if it's good and clean, I will start going through and taking all the exposed objects and hiding them

09/03/2021 <Mr.B> Do we have the part in the qdb when I call it feebutts. that is important